Religions get mocked all the time. Christianity is mocked regularly on this board and no one really cares, and rightfully so - there are a lot of stupid things in the Christian belief structure.
Islam is no different, they also believe in some stupid shit. Why is it so horrible to draw Muhammad? Because some old book says so. Woopty do. They're just drawings, get over it.
Originally posted by BackFire
Religions get mocked all the time. Christianity is mocked regularly on this board and no one really cares, and rightfully so - there are a lot of stupid things in the Christian belief structure.Islam is no different, they also believe in some stupid shit. Why is it so horrible to draw Muhammad? Because some old book says so. Woopty do. They're just drawings, get over it.
More to the point they're part of a wide spread hatred of Islam that is totally acceptable in the west. Muslims have every right to stand up and say that this sort of thing is not okay.
Originally posted by One Free Man
What i wanna know is why people are stirring shit. Leave the muslims alone.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
More to the point they're part of a wide spread hatred of Islam that is totally acceptable in the west. Muslims have every right to stand up and say that this sort of thing is not okay.
Of course they do. But they should change their aim to those who are truly at fault for directly encouraging such behavior - the vile psychopaths who are threatening murder in the name of Islam, thus tarring the religion from the inside.
They are attempting to bully, and when you attempt to bully, people will rebel. These bullies say 'don't draw our prophet or we'll kill you'. So the people rebel by drawing their prophet, not to upset the decent Muslims, but as a great big '**** you' to the psychopaths attempting to force their hands.
Blame the extremists, just as most people do when it comes to Christianity and other such religions, not those who are simply trying to point out the absurdity of those extremists.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
More to the point they're part of a wide spread hatred of Islam that is totally acceptable in the west. Muslims have every right to stand up and say that this sort of thing is not okay.
I doubt anyone objects to Muslims showing disapproval of Muhammad pictures; it's the groups that state "we're going to kill" that I imagine this drawing-day is aimed at.
Edit: Or what BF said.
Originally posted by BackFire
Of course they do. But they should change their aim to those who are truly at fault for directly encouraging such behavior - the vile psychopaths who are threatening murder in the name of Islam, thus tarring the religion from the inside.They are attempting to bully, and when you attempt to bully, people will rebel. These bullies say 'don't draw our prophet or we'll kill you'. So the people rebel by drawing their prophet, not to upset the decent Muslims, but as a great big '**** you' to the psychopaths attempting to force their hands.
Blame the extremists, just as most people do when it comes to Christianity and other such religions, not those who are simply trying to point out the absurdity of those extremists.
It doesn't matter who the target is, though, you're catching all other Muslims who are offended by depiction of Mohammad along with absolutely all Muslims who are offended by hatred of their entire religion.
If someone wants to say Islam sucks, fine that's their right. When you can set up a whole event devoted specifically to insulting Islam then yes, you have a very serious problem on that side. Not to mention that you completely prove the point of these extremists for them:
"The west hates Islam!"
"No it doesn't!"
"Then why do you have a day that does nothing but insult us?"
"Uh..."
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
"The west hates Islam!"
"No it doesn't!"
"Then why do you have a day that does nothing but insult us?"
"Well the reasons of behind the effort are quite clear, are they not, we use our numbers to set a sign against radical islamists threatening our freedoms. Not that it is an official day anyways, there's just certain people who want to express their outrage in this way, which in our culture is fine, additionally that should show you that it is not just about insulting "you", although if I have to lecture you on western beliefs and the difference between "some people living in the west" and "the west", perhaps it's not quite possible for us to have an intellectual conversation on that matter "
"Uh"
Of course it matters who the target is. Intent always matters. Sure it's offending all Muslims, but the intent isn't to offend all Muslims, it's to piss off the evil extremists. The fact that it's a large scale online movement really doesn't make it any different than someone simply mocking Islam, it's just a lot of people doing it, and the reason they're doing it is because of the extremists.
That last part is just circular reasoning. The actual answer to that question isn't "Uh...", but that they have a day to insult Islam because they don't like having their life threatened, and they're rebelling the only way they really can. None of this would be happening if the extremists weren't threatening people's lives. And the Muslims that are going to side with extremists who want to kill people over some drawings deserve to be mocked. Those people's feelings should not be taken into account, as their mental capacity is so far gone that their opinion matters not.
Originally posted by BackFire
Of course it matters who the target is. Intent always matters. Sure it's offending all Muslims, but the intent isn't to offend all Muslims, it's to piss off the evil extremists.
Do you really think this won't piss of Muslims in general?
Originally posted by BackFire
The fact that it's a large scale online movement really doesn't make it any different than someone simply mocking Islam, it's just a lot of people doing it, and the reason they're doing it is because of the extremists.
Of course it matters that a large scale movement is doing this rather than one person. It's the same difference as a long nutjob and a war.
Originally posted by BackFire
That last part is just circular reasoning. The actual answer to that question isn't "Uh...", but that they have to day to insult Islam because they don't like having their life threatened, and they're rebelling the only way they really can. None of this would be happening if the extremists weren't threatening people's lives.
No, none of this would be happening if people were mature enough to not feel some special need to insult people and paint their perceived enemies with a broad brush.
But I guess if people really want to live by the law of the playground they can.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Do you really think this won't piss of Muslims in general?Of course it matters that a large scale movement is doing this rather than one person. It's the same difference as a long nutjob and a war.
No, none of this would be happening if people were mature enough to not feel some special need to insult people and paint their perceived enemies with a broad brush.
But I guess if people really want to live by the law of the playground they can.
It will piss off Muslims. But that doesn't matter. Offending people is not a big deal. Happens on this board all the time.
And no, a war is something started by the government, this is not an official day endorsed by any government. Exceedingly poor analogy there. It's just a lot of people who don't appreciate having their lives threatened and they're just rebelling. It will stop when threats against the lives of those who draw silly little pictures stop.
What should they do? Just appease the bullies? If you threaten people's lives, there will be backlash. This is simply that backlash, and it's not even that bad. If you threaten someone's life, and all the people do is draw pictures in response - not so bad.
It is extremely telling and pathetic that you're placing the blame on those exercising their rights to simply draw a picture in protest of those who are attempting to snuff that right, rather than those who are condoning murder and torture over said picture. Not sure what broad brush you're talking about. No one is saying all Muslims are bad or evil, just those that are deserve to have their beliefs shit on. And this IS a response to extremists, if the extremists weren't threatening people, it would not be having. This is factual.
Originally posted by inimalist
what positive change do you think this could possibly bring?
I don't. I'm opposed to it. I'm not opposed to offending others simply on principle, but I am in this case because I see no possible benefit.
Originally posted by inimalist
people who have extremely generalized views of the Muslim faith are going to continue to have extremely generalized views of the Muslim faith, and Muslims who are offended by this are going to be offended and think the West as a whole (because they generalize as well as we do) is out to mock their religion.god, its the stupid ****ing myth of activism. here, you want freedom of speech in the Islamic world? Tell western governments to stop supporting autocratic rulers in oil producing nations. Many of these governments would have long since fell were it not for Western support, and our support for them has our values labeled as corrupt. To them, the freedom to blaspheme is corrupt.
such outbursts are little better than the protests that we saw in the Muslim world in response to the cartoons
Agreed in full. I think you misread my last post.
Originally posted by Digi
I don't. I'm opposed to it. I'm not opposed to offending others simply on principle, but I am in this case because I see no possible benefit.
ok, but even in general. I'm as much a fan as transgressive art as the next guy (I have a Mapplethorpe print in my room!), but its actual value in society can be really limited, especially as a force for activism.
Even when trasngressive art is good, it is making us feel uncomforable with ourselves, or showing us the skeletons we all have in our closets, the desires that unite all humans but that the social contract sort of obliges us to forget. That doesn't seem to be the way that people should want to engage with eachother in dialogue.
I'm not making this personally at you, but like, I really just don't get this whole thing. I'm totally with Sym, it really just shows that Muslims, the generalized group, are still a valid target or vitriol. Else, and I'm totally serious here, why don't we have a Lou day?
Lou was a picture by mapplethorpe of a man inserting his finger into his penis. We should all do that to stand up against the Christians who petition, protest, and threaten to prevent his work to be shown!
Who is with me! all you free speech advocates! all you super libertarian freedom fighters! Support freedom of speech everywhere, give yourself a Lou.
/rant.... ya, my appologies digi, none of that actually meant for you....
Originally posted by Digi
Agreed in full. I think you misread my last post.
probably, my bad. I was more reacting against the thread in a reply to you, much like above... exploitative?
Ok thanks, not directly at me but to the thread in general.
Tbh, I'd be hard pressed to name a situation in which offending a group on a societal level is potentially more good than harm. I could name such situations on a more personal level, but that's another matter entirely. I just didn't want my objection to this particular tactic to come across as "we shouldn't offend anyone" because, well, that's more than a bit naive imo.
if you dont like whats on the net then close the page.
if you dont like whats on tv change the channel.
no one is forcing anyone to watch or hear anything.
move on with your life and let it go if something in the media offends you. there will always be some kinda offensive humor towards every race and religion. just dont get into it if you feel offended by it. like i said above no one is being forced to watch anything. its your choice no one elses.
and threatning another human life is not the answer just makes your kind look worse and worse every day.
The fact that they're making threats only validates the mockery. And besides, the extremists will make threats regardless simply because to them all one must do in order to be justifiably killed is not believe in what they believe in.
Why should Muslims be off limits of mockery or parody when all other religions are considered fair game? Either all religion can be made fun of or none of it can be. I prefer the former.
Originally posted by BackFire
The fact that they're making threats only validates the mockery. And besides, the extremists will make threats regardless simply because to them all one must do in order to be justifiably killed is not believe in what they believe in.Why should Muslims be off limits of mockery or parody when all other religions are considered fair game? Either all religion can be made fun of or none of it can be. I prefer the former.
There's a noticeable difference between making fun of a religion and organizing a day for that purpose.
I'm all for South Park using Mohammad in a cartoon by the way or even a cartoonist doing the bomb turban thing. But this sort of organized hatred never goes anywhere good.