I don't think even with said information they could stomp him, Pain still has a really really powerful skill set. One of the main reasons Naruto did as well as he did was because Deva was out of power for most of the match, after all, taking him on in addition to the other five would've been even harder.
Kakashi, even knowing Deva's recharge time, needed help against Deva.
Perhaps "stomp him" is a little strong a statement, but i still contend that he can be beaten by any high level ninja and fairly easily by any kage-level ninja. To be fair, Kakashi didn't have that info beforehand, he had to figure it out mid-battle. My scenario is dependent on having that knowledge pre-battle.
Originally posted by marwash22
Perhaps "stomp him" is a little strong a statement, but i still contend that he can be beaten by any high level ninja and fairly easily by any kage-level ninja. To be fair, Kakashi didn't have that info beforehand, he had to figure it out mid-battle. My scenario is dependent on having that knowledge pre-battle.
I still disagree. Even knowing a weakness it was hard to exploit, it'd be harder still with the other Pains backing him up, and Deva didn't use his biggest jutsu on Kakashi or Chozu.
Deva on his own is probably low to mid-Kage. In addition to his gravity power his physical fighting is quite impressive.
Add in the other five who are themselves various flavors of jonin level (the two soul-stealers being the weakest, but the one that can fix others being very valuable aside) and just about only the best of the Kage class could realistically beat all 6 at once even with knowledge IMO.
Healthy Itachi, a young 3rd Hokage, or similar.
Originally posted by Q99
I don't think even with said information they could stomp him, Pain still has a really really powerful skill set. One of the main reasons Naruto did as well as he did was because Deva was out of power for most of the match, after all, taking him on in addition to the other five would've been even harder.Kakashi, even knowing Deva's recharge time, needed help against Deva.
We do know that Jiraiya was WTF pwned when it was more than 3 against 1.
Naruto fought all of them (cept the real one), minus the Deva path's magic force push and pull abilities. (So, it was more like a 90-95% Pain whereas Jiraiya fought a 50% Pain.)
Still puts Naruto at a higher feat level than Jiraiya, despite the fact that Naruto still got beaten after disabling or destorying them all except for Deva Path: much better than Jiraiya could accomplish, by far.
Much better than any Ninja could accomplish, canon-wise. Logically, I'm sure Bee or A could do just as good if not better. In the Naruto-verse, however, which is really what counts, only Naruto could have gotten that far (out of Ninja's that were alive.)
Originally posted by dadudemon
We do know that Jiraiya was WTF pwned when it was more than 3 against 1.Naruto fought all of them (cept the real one), minus the Deva path's magic force push and pull abilities. (So, it was more like a 90-95% Pain whereas Jiraiya fought a 50% Pain.)
Still puts Naruto at a higher feat level than Jiraiya, despite the fact that Naruto still got beaten after disabling or destorying them all except for Deva Path: much better than Jiraiya could accomplish, by far.
Much better than any Ninja could accomplish, canon-wise. Logically, I'm sure Bee or A could do just as good if not better. In the Naruto-verse, however, which is really what counts, only Naruto could have gotten that far (out of Ninja's that were alive.)
A few things of note: Naruto had three giant summons and two Elders able to act independently along with him, who he didn't even have to use the chakra to summon
Naruto has a lot more chakra and a more perfected sage mode than Jiraiya, and his Rasenshuriken is probably more singularly powerful than any of Jiraiya's moves. It was responsible for a lot of the casualties. His Sage Taijutsu is probably stronger too.
Naruto lost when Deva got power back, and would've been killed if that had been what Pain was going for. When he got a second go of it, he barely was able to beat Deva when Deva didn't have any backup, and it used up all of his sage chakra to do so.
After Kyuubi at 8-tails broke free of Chibaku tensei, Pain was planning on just doing another bigger one. At high cost, sure, but he wasn't out of moves just because he was in full Biju mode. Kyuubi does have some advantages over the Ox too even at 6-8, like the protective chakra-shroud which makes it much harder to hurt than a fully released Oxtopus.
marwash22 yeah, your examples fit in to what i mean about kage-level or just below. With exception to the fifth, I'd say all the Hokage's can solo Pein.lulz.
Old Sarutobi can beat Pein, probably at the cost of his life.
Young Sarutobi would violate Pein.
Again, I doubt it. Which ones would even be standing after the city-busting Push or be able to escape a Chibaku tensei? 4th might be able to avoid it, 5th could only defend with a chakra reserve none of the rest have, and I could maybe see an ultra-wood barrier providing enough defense, but I doubt 2nd's water could do the same. 3rd's incredibly varied and awesome, but does he have the raw power?
Old Sarutobi wouldn't be able to use his suicide move on main Pain, so he'd probably just be worn down.
The Hokages might be able to win if things went right, but I doubt any would have an easy time of it, and the Hokages as a whole seem to be fairly exceptional as Kage. Pain's the strongest Ninja we've seen in action to date.
And again, you're assuming entirely too much. Remember that everything I'm saying is under the notion that, they would have detailed knowledge of Pein's abilities. That said, why do you assume Sarutobi wouldn't kill Deva first?... like he's just gonna stand there and wait for pain to use that Push attack. With Deva out of the way, he'd kill the one that resurrects (i can't think of which one that is atm)... after that, the other paths are like mid to high-level jounin and Sarutobi proceeds to rape them in a most unsavory way.
You can also add to the fact that we don't have an accurate accounting of any of the Hokage's abilities. We've seen what the 3rd is capable of, but not in his prime; as for the others, we've seen only glimpses and heard rumors.
By your estimation, Minato, one of the greatest ninja of all time, who only died because he faced the most powerful entity in the entire story... wouldn't be able to beat Pein? Ludicrous!
I also take exception to the following statement, "Pain's the strongest Ninja we've seen in action to date."... No, he really isnt. Not even close, really. There were akatsuki member's who were more powerful than Pein; Pein just comes off as uber powerful because no one knows his secret and not being privy to that informtion before engaging Pein is an unbelivable, almost insurmountable handicap.
Originally posted by dadudemonnaruto got his ass kicked. if he was allowed to kill, pein could have put one of those spears into naruto's brain while he was incapacitated.
We do know that Jiraiya was WTF pwned when it was more than 3 against 1.Naruto fought all of them (cept the real one), minus the Deva path's magic force push and pull abilities. (So, it was more like a 90-95% Pain whereas Jiraiya fought a 50% Pain.)
Still puts Naruto at a higher feat level than Jiraiya, despite the fact that Naruto still got beaten after disabling or destorying them all except for Deva Path: much better than Jiraiya could accomplish, by far.
Much better than any Ninja could accomplish, canon-wise. Logically, I'm sure Bee or A could do just as good if not better. In the Naruto-verse, however, which is really what counts, only Naruto could have gotten that far (out of Ninja's that were alive.)
i wouldn't use naruto as an example for defeating pein.
Originally posted by marwash22
And again, you're assuming entirely too much. Remember that everything I'm saying is under the notion that, they would have detailed knowledge of Pein's abilities.
Naruto had info on Pain's abilities and still lost.
That said, why do you assume Sarutobi wouldn't kill Deva first?...
Because, (1) Deva is very hard to kill because he's Kage level himself with impressive defense and fighting back, and (2) will be defended and assisted by 5 other bodies who have impressive powers themselves who will be attacking Sarutobi while he tries. It's not like they each fight one by one, they support each other, will aim for backshots, will sacrifice themselves to protect lesser Pains, etc.. Jutsu-immune Pain standing near enough to block attacks on the others is a big worry, Asura's chakra laser is dangerous, giant animals can always been an annoyance, and so on.
And also, it's the resurrection one you really gotta hit first, otherwise you can kill Deva and still be screwed when he comes back right after.
Why do you assume that just because Sarutobi wants Deva dead it'll be a snap? Deva's not just going to stand there and let him do whatever either, he's going to defend himself. He has one of the strongest defenses in the series, and his physical abilities were enough to keep up with Kakashi's speed and sharingan.
You can also add to the fact that we don't have an accurate accounting of any of the Hokage's abilities. We've seen what the 3rd is capable of, but not in his prime; as for the others, we've seen only glimpses and heard rumors.
We have some general idea. None of them were said to have a super-chakra ability like a biju host. We know what they're most famous for: Wood, Water, array of jutsu, speed, and strength respectively. We saw their resurrected forms fight.
If you're saying we don't know enough, what makes you so sure they'll stomp? It's not like you're saying "we don't know how it'll go," you're saying they'll win easily somehow. I don't think anything we do know says that.
By your estimation, Minato, one of the greatest ninja of all time, who only died because he faced the most powerful entity in the entire story... wouldn't be able to beat Pein? Ludicrous!
He's probably the one with the best shot, able to teleport fast enough to avoid most of the uber attacks... but keep in mind Pain is also one of the most powerful ninja in the entire story.
By my estimation, he would not have an easy time of it, though.
I also take exception to the following statement, "Pain's the strongest Ninja we've seen in action to date."... No, he really isnt. Not even close, really. There were akatsuki member's who were more powerful than Pein; Pein just comes off as uber powerful because no one knows his secret and not being privy to that informtion before engaging Pein is an unbelivable, almost insurmountable handicap.
Which ones do you think have been shown to be more powerful?
Pain comes off as uber-powerful because he's shown uber powerful jutsu and abilities, especially Deva.
His secret made it even trickier to beat him than it looked, but he still showed massive power himself, you shouldn't confuse "he had a secret trick," with "he was weak without it," because he did not need that trick to win any of the fights he came on top in.
You make good arguments.
I realize it's a double standard on my part to assert that, because we don't know the full extent of the Hokage's powers, they would easily beat Pein, while assuming the inverse wouldn't be true. My point is that, these people were supposedly, the best ninja around in their respective times so i would venture to guess that they are all at the upper tier of any ninja we will ever see in the series. the 1st and 2nd, along with 3rd and fourth are regarded as titans and they all died due to exigent circumstances.
"More powerful" and "more destructive" are not the same thing; with that said, Madara and Itachi are more powerful than Pein.
I'm don't mean to say that Pein is a scrub, not at all, i just dont think he is the omnipotent force most believe him to be. One more thing, who (of importance) has Pein beaten without having the advantage?
Originally posted by King KandyYou're misunderstanding the point. Pein retreated because he knew he was about to get his ass kicked by 6-tailed Naruto. The attack used (can't recall the name of it) is devastating sure, but that doesn't even begin to prove that Pein > 6-tailed Naruto. If this were the case, Pein wouldn't have needed to run away, he could have just kicked Naruto's ass like he did Choji's dad.
Pein beat him with a technique that is pure power.
Originally posted by marwash22
You're misunderstanding the point. Pein retreated because he knew he was about to get his ass kicked by 6-tailed Naruto. The attack used (can't recall the name of it) is devastating sure, but that doesn't even begin to prove that Pein > 6-tailed Naruto. If this were the case, Pein wouldn't have needed to run away, he could have just kicked Naruto's ass like he did Choji's dad.
Originally posted by King KandyUmmmmmm, ok! i can support that logic. i guess.
He needed to run to Nagato because he wouldn't be strong enough to beat him otherwise, because Pain's power is proportional to how close he is to Nagato. Once close enough, he was capable of defeating 6-tails. Effectively, the Pain that COULDN'T beat 6-tails was a Pain that lacked it's full power. Once at full power, Pain>Six Tails.
Originally posted by marwash22
"More powerful" and "more destructive" are not the same thing; with that said, Madara and Itachi are more powerful than Pein.
With Madara, or at least current Madara, Pain seems like he'd be the perfect one to take advantage of the 'moment of tangibility' thing, plus jutsu-stopper Preta can prevent space warps. Even minor Pains like Human Path (the soul-ripper) were good at taijutsu.
Itachi I view as one of the strongest ninja in the series, at least when he's not sick. I think he might keel over from disease now, but without the disease and able to use Susano'o freely, I think he is one of the few who might be able to beat Pain on his own. Even so, I think it'd be an epic fight, and I'd probably bet on Pain due to endurance factors, but I can see an argument for Itachi.
I'm don't mean to say that Pein is a scrub, not at all, i just dont think he is the omnipotent force most believe him to be. One more thing, who (of importance) has Pein beaten without having the advantage?
Naruto. Plus, he did beat Jiraiya without using his best moves; even if Jiraiya had known, he still IMO would've lost. He temporarily retreated just against Animal, Human, and Preta Paths, that didn't even include the two strongest Pains (IMO Asura's the second strongest).
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Just to stress one point, ninja fighting without knowing the entire move set of their opponents is the norm. Having the full rundown is an exceptional situation, even famous ninja usually have secrets in reserve. Even knowing the existence of the 7th, I don't think any of his foes learned Pain's full jutsu list.