Originally posted by Q99Naruto, really? He had Naruto beaten, i can't deny that; however, you can't really compare he and someone like Jiraiya or Itachi, or Madara or one of the Kage's. Excluding the bijuu's chakra, Naruto is barely a jounin level ninja and I'm probably being generous calling him a jounin.
Naruto.
Originally posted by Q99Well duh, I think there has been a misunderstanding. Go back to the very beginning of our exchange and you'll see that my entire premise is based on the opponents knowing the basics about Pein, and not necessarily the entire list of jutsu in his arsenal. I'm in agreement that in an ordinary situation, there's only a very select few who can beat Pein. The main thing i was trying to stress is that, if the opponent doesn't have basic info, it's almost impossible to beat all six. Conversely though, if they have the info, it's a much more equalized fight which takes away a lot of the mystique surrounding Pein.
Just to stress one point, ninja fighting without knowing the entire move set of their opponents is the norm. Having the full rundown is an exceptional situation, even famous ninja usually have secrets in reserve. Even knowing the existence of the 7th, I don't think any of his foes learned Pain's full jutsu list.
Originally posted by Q99You can't honestly believe that if Jiraiya knew the two vital details about Pein... 1) being that all the bodies share vision and 2) being each bodies basic function, he wouldn't have won. Jiraiya was clearly superior to Pein from the very start and the only reason Pein could keep up is because of the shared vision, which Jiraiya didn't know about. That said, this is probably a poor example because Jiraiya needed to die for Naruto's sake, but you get what i mean now, don't you?
Plus, he did beat Jiraiya without using his best moves; even if Jiraiya had known, he still IMO would've lost. He temporarily retreated just against Animal, Human, and Preta Paths, that didn't even include the two strongest Pains (IMO Asura's the second strongest).
Originally posted by King KandyAgreed. But then that wouldn't be much of a fight at all 'cause the opponent would just go after the 7th and not even bother engaging the other 6.
Jiraiya already figured those both out on his own early on... the "secret" that supposedly would have enabled his victory was that Nagato was the 7th path sitting somewhere. Without knowing THAT secret, Jiraiya would have lost no matter what (and even if he did, I think he would have lost anyway).
Also, don't you agree that if an opponent knows about the connected vision, it would completely alter how they'd fight? Stick with me here, I honestly believe that if you give Shikamaru this information and team him with two or three high level ninja, they'd win. Not saying it would be a rape, but they'd be able to do it.
Originally posted by marwash22
Agreed. But then that wouldn't be much of a fight at all 'cause the opponent would just go after the 7th and not even bother engaging the other 6.Also, don't you agree that if an opponent knows about the connected vision, it would completely alter how they'd fight? Stick with me here, I honestly believe that if you give Shikamaru this information and team him with two or three high level ninja, they'd win. Not saying it would be a rape, but they'd be able to do it.
I don't think that shikamaru could do so based on the fact that all of Konoha's ninja could not come up with a coherent plan despite fukusaku telling them about the shared vision, nor can I think of any plausible plan myself that could net them a victory.
Originally posted by marwash22
Naruto, really? He had Naruto beaten, i can't deny that; however, you can't really compare he and someone like Jiraiya or Itachi, or Madara or one of the Kage's. Excluding the bijuu's chakra, Naruto is barely a jounin level ninja and I'm probably being generous calling him a jounin.
Not since Sage mode he hasn't been, he's stronger than Kakashi, who's S-class himself. He beat opponents Kakashi couldn't, without using his biju chakra, and was said to be stronger than "I beat Deidara and am about to attack multiple Kage head on" Sasuke.
Both of the main rivals have been S-class for awhile now and use S-class techniques as their mainstays in combat. Not the strongest of the S-classes yet, but clearly well in that area and growing fast.
Heck, let's not forget a mere two bodies (albeit two of the stronger ones) beat Kakashi when Kakashi had help, without resorting to Deva's stronger jutsu.
You can't honestly believe that if Jiraiya knew the two vital details about Pein... 1) being that all the bodies share vision and 2) being each bodies basic function, he wouldn't have won. Jiraiya was clearly superior to Pein from the very start and the only reason Pein could keep up is because of the shared vision, which Jiraiya didn't know about. That said, this is probably a poor example because Jiraiya needed to die for Naruto's sake, but you get what i mean now, don't you?
Of course I can.
Jiraiya was fighting three of Pain's weaker bodies when he was using sage mode and it was still quite a fight. Deva, the one who's arguably S-class himself, barely showed up until he was already down an arm.
Knowing about the secrets doesn't decrease Pain's power any.
If he knew Pain's secrets, Jiraiya would've inflicted more damage but still lost.
Originally posted by Q99
Not since Sage mode he hasn't been, he's stronger than Kakashi, who's S-class himself. He beat opponents Kakashi couldn't, without using his biju chakra, and was said to be stronger than "I beat Deidara and am about to attack multiple Kage head on" Sasuke.Both of the main rivals have been S-class for awhile now and use S-class techniques as their mainstays in combat. Not the strongest of the S-classes yet, but clearly well in that area and growing fast.
Heck, let's not forget a mere two bodies (albeit two of the stronger ones) beat Kakashi when Kakashi had help, without resorting to Deva's stronger jutsu.
Of course I can.
Jiraiya was fighting three of Pain's weaker bodies when he was using sage mode and it was still quite a fight. Deva, the one who's arguably S-class himself, barely showed up until he was already down an arm.
Knowing about the secrets doesn't decrease Pain's power any.
If he knew Pain's secrets, Jiraiya would've inflicted more damage but still lost.
Deva's well into S-Class, by far. He's no slouch at taijutsu, and his ninjutsu can be Bijuu level in terms of scale. Plus, his *basic* gravitational manipulation is very potent, despite having that limit.
Then there's that uber rain detection jutsu, which while isn't of much use in a fight, is still pretty uber considering he covered an entire village with it.
What I mean by *basic* is that he can't use the other 'aspects' of gravitational manipulation, such as making someone 'weightless', or increasing their weight to such a point that they collapse. It's focused around himself, or another object, like Chibaku Tensei.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenixnot to mention he can be so much stronger if nagato just uses him minus the other paths (which is most likely the reason he could do all those other jutsu prior to us knowing he was one of six, the rest were in cold storage without using chackra)
Deva's well into S-Class, by far. He's no slouch at taijutsu, and his ninjutsu can be Bijuu level in terms of scale. Plus, his *basic* gravitational manipulation is very potent, despite having that limit.
Then there's that uber rain detection jutsu, which while isn't of much use in a fight, is still pretty uber considering he covered an entire village with it.What I mean by *basic* is that he can't use the other 'aspects' of gravitational manipulation, such as making someone 'weightless', or increasing their weight to such a point that they collapse. It's focused around himself, or another object, like Chibaku Tensei.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Deva's well into S-Class, by far. He's no slouch at taijutsu, and his ninjutsu can be Bijuu level in terms of scale. Plus, his *basic* gravitational manipulation is very potent, despite having that limit.
Then there's that uber rain detection jutsu, which while isn't of much use in a fight, is still pretty uber considering he covered an entire village with it.
Let's not forget other jutsu he used with more prep- the one-third Chakra clones that can mimic even Akatsuki and are far tougher than normal clones, and the copy-traps he used on team Gai.
He's pretty impressive.
marwash22
Yeah, Jiraiya figured it out fairly quickly, but at that point, he had already used up a considerable amount of chakra... i just think it would go differently for someone who isn't fated to die.
I think you're thinking it backwards; Kishimoto planned for Jiraiya to die, so he made Pain legitimately stronger than him. It's not like he fought below average to make him die, he fought extremely well. Jiraiya wasn't weakened, Pain was always intended to be stronger.
Also with the Frog Elders, they were supplying Jiraiya with sage chakra fairly continuously, so I'm not even sure if he was running low at the end, he's got a lot to begin with.
Wearing someone down is a legitimate strategy for that matter, Summoner Pain's summons are dangerous enough to not be ignored, and used up resources. Pain had a lot more in reserve to wear him down too.
Originally posted by Astner
Thinking in a more tactical sense, Pain could absorb virtually any attack thrown at him and I doubt B would figure his secret out and develop a working strategy before Pain wears him out.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Because that totally worked on Naruto, right? Bee is faster than sage naruto, a smarter fighter, and he has more chakra than sage naruto.
Though one of the only reasons it didn't work is because Sage chakra can turn one to stone.
Kisame did pull off a similar strategy against Bee successfully.
Originally posted by Q99
Though one of the only reasons it didn't work is because Sage chakra can turn one to stone.Kisame did pull off a similar strategy against Bee successfully.
Originally posted by Q99well, that's what i meant by "fated to die". We've seen characters who are weaker than their opponent win before, but even if Jiraiya could have won (which i think he could've), he wouldn't have due to the story... this is why i said it was probably a poor example.
]I think you're thinking it backwards; Kishimoto planned for Jiraiya to die, so he made Pain legitimately stronger than him. It's not like he fought below average to make him die, he fought extremely well. Jiraiya wasn't weakened, Pain was always intended to be stronger
2 things.
1. Pain, like the entirety of the Uchiha Clan is enitrely dependent on his kekkei genkai for his power. Guys like the Third and Jiraiya were just that freaking powerful.
2. Pain himself admitted that if Jiraiya had knew what he was going up against, then Jiraiya might very well have come-out the victor.
Now, as far as Killer Bee is concerned, the man can turn into the Eight Tails and use the Menacing Ball at will. A extremely powerful technique. This is were being a Jinchuriki with full control over your tailed beast comes in handy. He can all but stomp all over everything except the Deva Path and even then, it's in his favor.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Absorbing Pein can stop menacing ball.
I hate simplistic tard answers like this one. It devolves into this can counter that but this character can do this and blahblahblah.
Look, even if that's true, it's largely irrelevant as mot of the other Pain forms will be dead or incapacitated in some way long before he thinks it necessary to transform.
Originally posted by Letum Lettow
I hate simplistic tard answers like this one. It devolves into this can counter that but this character can do this and blahblahblah.Look, even if that's true, it's largely irrelevant as mot of the other Pain forms will be dead or incapacitated in some way long before he thinks it necessary to transform.