Actually before and after the fight, it shows Dart charging Lloyd alone, with no one else from the party in the room.
00:14-till start of the battle. This is an important detail because in all other boss engagements the whole party is shown before (and after) a fight.
Obviously they made it there too eventually at least, but it was still depicted as a duel as seen even at the end fight cutscene at 6:48 where Dart once again charges Lloyd alone with no other party member visible in the room. So they didn't necessarily help at all.
And another important thing is Lloyd is even more nimble here than usual as he was using his hover flight abilities. Dart had gotten a lot better, just as Lloyd canonically said he would after their first fight at the tournament.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Actually before and after the fight, it shows Dart charging Lloyd alone, with no one else from the party in the room.00:14-till start of the battle. This is an important detail because in all other boss engagements the whole party is shown before (and after) a fight.
Obviously they made it there too eventually at least, but it was still depicted as a duel as seen even at the end fight cutscene at 6:48 where Dart once again charges Lloyd alone with no other party member visible in the room. So they didn't necessarily help at all.
And another important thing is Lloyd is even more nimble here than usual as he was using his hover flight abilities. Dart had gotten a lot better, just as Lloyd canonically said he would after their first fight at the tournament.
Usually and almost always is Dart the one who does the "final blow" on the bosses. Just to make him earn all the glory or something stupid like that, look at Cloud beating Bahamut-Sin. The fact is, Lloyd is fought by all the team just as almost all the bosses. Dart getting better is also obvious, we can say the same about the rest of the characters, they're all getting stronger throughout the game. This isn't enough to beat Cloud, in my opinion. Cloud is a genetically enhanced super-soldier, Dart seems human, unless he's using Dragoon form to enchance his abilities.
The fact that he can fly means nothing.
Did you watch the video?
Again Dart was shown charging alone with no one else present, both in the cutscene before and AFTER the fight. All other boss fights (other than the tournament for Dart and a few other individual boss fights) shows the party engaging.
Dart is no more a mere human than Cloud. He has superhuman feats in base form all throughout the game.
Flight means A LOT. Especially when its accompanied by the flight speed and dragonfly like maneuverability of Dragoon form. Cloud couldn't jump any higher than 50 or so feet without needing a boost from each of his friends while fighting Bahamut. He would have hell trying to hit dragoon form Dart.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Did you watch the video?Again Dart was shown charging alone with no one else present, both in the cutscene before and AFTER the fight. All other boss fights (other than the tournament for Dart and a few other individual boss fights) shows the party engaging.
Dart is no more a mere human than Cloud. He has superhuman feats in base form all throughout the game.
Flight means A LOT. Especially when its accompanied by the flight speed and dragonfly like maneuverability of Dragoon form. Cloud couldn't jump any higher than 50 or so feet without needing a boost from each of his friends while fighting Bahamut. He would have hell trying to hit dragoon form Dart.
And why Lloyd says "Here they are" when Dart shows up? You know, the party goes "inside" Dart. Otherwise, you'll be controlling more than five characters at once during the scenarios of the game. That pretty much happens in many RPGs, I could name you some. And as far as I can see, there's isn't enough space to animate 7 characters in that place, and as is not even important to do so either because we all know they are there. You're not assuming Dart fought Lloyd by himself due of that, right? Because that would be completely ridiculous. He obviously fought and defeated Lloyd with the help of ALL of his team AND Dragoon forms.
Dart is human. Cloud is a genetically enhanced super-human. Dart may be super-human by accessing to his Dragoon form, which allows him to use Magic and special stuff.
That's like saying that Cloud wouldn't have touched Sephiroth because he could fly. That's like saying that none of Cloud's friends could have touched Bahamut-Sin because he was flying. That's like saying that tons of characters wouldn't be able to fight enemies whose can fly. That's like saying that because someone can fly and there is a guy who lacks that ability, is unable to win a fight. That sounds pretty much like a No-Limit Fallacy to me.
-Except 'They're here' does not have to literally mean they are all in that room at that exact moment. All that Lloyd does know is that the group has been following him.
-'Goes inside' Dart, about time you mentioned it so I could easily refute it already. It's a gameplay element for purposes outside of cutscenes where the engine is not able to show several 3d sprites running around a field at the player's command at once. In all other boss cutscenes besides the exceptions mentioned, there is always more than just Dart shown on the field before engagement, even if they don't show everyone, there is always more than just Dart present. Here its just Dart.
-'Not enough room'? Hogwash assumption. They can easily fit 6 more people in that scene around and behind Dart. They do so in other more cramped scenes than that.
- 'He obviously fought and defeated Lloyd with the help of ALL of his team AND Dragoon forms.' Who's assuming again? I'm the only one going by cutscenes. There is no indication that the whole group fought. At all. Dart is the only one shown engaging Lloyd one on one in two different scenes in that area, both of those scenes show only him in the room. Dart had Lloyd on the defensive in the end, by himself.
What was my ultimate point here? That Dart can react to Lloyd's speed, and thus Cloud's speed won't be surprising. That's all, he doesn't even have to have beaten Lloyd one on one for that to be true. Hell, Haschel by himself reacts to and defeats his daughter Claire who was possessed by the War God, and her movements were about fast as Lloyd's.
In Disc 4, Dart also reacts to a surprise attack/slash from Zieg who was possessed by Melbu Frahma. Melbu Frahma while still possessing Zieg in Disc 3, casually owns Lloyd with a magic attack before Lloyd could even react, Lloyd was already on the defensive and ready to attack when that happened as well.
Melbu Frahma is a superior wingly to Lloyd. And he demonstrated Wingly abilities (such as flight) even while possessing a human form like Zieg's. (Zieg's body didn't even have to be in dragoon form to fly while Melbu was in control)
-Dart is a human yeah, we've already established that. A human with super-human feats all throughout the game even outside of dragoon form. It's a stupid point that is extinguished as soon as one's memory isn't limited enough to recall that fact.
Your explanation of Cloud's abilities are unwarranted because it has nothing to do with Dart. In Dart's verse, one can be capable of superhuman feats simply by the strength of training to attain such a level, which is demonstrated over and over. Hell, it wasn't even necessary for me to say that, because Cid Highwind isn't genetically modified either. Yet he's similarly superhuman in Advent Children. Sorry, you never had a point to stand on here.
--Lol. Did Cloud EVER ONCE even touch Sephiroth during the times he was zipping through the air? Don't be a fool with semantics. Simply saying 'flying' has nothing to do with anything here. You are attempting to juxtapose Bahamut Sin's relatively ponderous speed and huge size and him getting into range for the characters to attack, with a human sized character in a dragoon who has far greater maneuverability(able to make elaborate turns during flight with ease) and far greater speed(able to cover the span of a couple of miles in a few seconds)? Lol. Simply because they both have 'flight' makes it nowhere near the same thing despite your failed attempt at trying to frame them as such.
It's all about context. And don't be such a noob with forum verbage either, you aren't impressing anyone with your incorrect usage. There is no such demonstration of 'no limits fallacy' here.
Speed Blitzing a guy who can't fly and can only jump 50 or so feet is not a 'no limits fallacy' as it is LOWER than the limits demonstrated by the guy who will be doing the speed blitzing(Dart in dragoon form that is).
Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Except 'They're here' does not have to literally mean they are all in that room at that exact moment. All that Lloyd does know is that the group has been following him.-'Goes inside' Dart, about time you mentioned it so I could easily refute it already. It's a gameplay element for purposes outside of cutscenes where the engine is not able to show several 3d sprites running around a field at the player's command at once. In all other boss cutscenes besides the exceptions mentioned, there is always more than just Dart shown on the field before engagement, even if they don't show everyone, there is always more than just Dart present. Here its just Dart.
-'Not enough room'? Hogwash assumption. They can easily fit 6 more people in that scene around and behind Dart. They do so in other more cramped scenes than that.
- 'He obviously fought and defeated Lloyd with the help of ALL of his team AND Dragoon forms.' Who's assuming again? I'm the only one going by cutscenes. There is no indication that the whole group fought. At all. Dart is the only one shown engaging Lloyd one on one in two different scenes in that area, both of those scenes show only him in the room. Dart had Lloyd on the defensive in the end, by himself.
I can accept that. But why the team leaves Dart alone, then?
I know, many RPG games does that all the time.
Although yeah, I do believe there's not enough space to animate seven more people, however when the battle scene is set on, the scenario is expanded.
Ok, tell me why you fight Lloyd with a party, then? If Dart is alone, then it doesn't make sense. They could have made Dart alone without a team in that fight, just as they did earlier in the tournament. Also, I don't see why Dart wouldn't use his powers as a Dragoon to fight Lloyd. That woman Theresa is first seen inside and then she's suddenly outside, but we never see her leaving, we have to assume she left before the fight?
Originally posted by CosmicComet
What was my ultimate point here? That Dart can react to Lloyd's speed, and thus Cloud's speed won't be surprising. That's all, he doesn't even have to have beaten Lloyd one on one for that to be true. Hell, Haschel by himself reacts to and defeats his daughter Claire who was possessed by the War God, and her movements were about fast as Lloyd's.In Disc 4, Dart also reacts to a surprise attack/slash from Zieg who was possessed by Melbu Frahma. Melbu Frahma while still possessing Zieg in Disc 3, casually owns Lloyd with a magic attack before Lloyd could even react, Lloyd was already on the defensive and ready to attack when that happened as well.
Melbu Frahma is a superior wingly to Lloyd. And he demonstrated Wingly abilities (such as flight) even while possessing a human form like Zieg's. (Zieg's body didn't even have to be in dragoon form to fly while Melbu was in control)
Dart gets stronger, you know? And how fast Lloyd is? He moves at super-sonic speed? The speed of sound? Light-speed? Why Cloud's speed won't be surprising? As far as I know he's damn fast. Also, Dart dodging a simple slash doesn't seem so amazing to me, it's not like he dodged a bullet or anything, it was a sword slash.
Are you using A>B>C logic? Dart defeated his father with all of his team, the same goes to Melbu Frahma, so that shows literally nothing.
Cool, but Dart can't do anything of that, can he?
Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Dart is a human yeah, we've already established that. A human with super-human feats all throughout the game even outside of dragoon form. It's a stupid point that is extinguished as soon as one's memory isn't limited enough to recall that fact.Your explanation of Cloud's abilities are unwarranted because it has nothing to do with Dart. In Dart's verse, one can be capable of superhuman feats simply by the strength of training to attain such a level, which is demonstrated over and over. Hell, it wasn't even necessary for me to say that, because Cid Highwind isn't genetically modified either. Yet he's similarly superhuman in Advent Children. Sorry, you never had a point to stand on here.
Dart is super-human when you compare him to us. In that universe is a common feat to perform those things, also in Final Fantasy. A very well trained warrior (as you mention) is capable of doing exactly the same. Dragoons however, are considered beyond human levels. Look at Tifa. Tifa is not super-human, yet there you have her performing cool stuff and she was trained just by an old guy. However, she was owned by Loz who was literally playing with her, as he IS super-human. But, Cloud own Loz. Cloud is a genetically enhanced super-soldier, Cid Highwind is not, he's just some old airship-fan who is good with a Spear.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
--Lol. Did Cloud EVER ONCE even touch Sephiroth during the times he was zipping through the air? Don't be a fool with semantics. Simply saying 'flying' has nothing to do with anything here. You are attempting to juxtapose Bahamut Sin's relatively ponderous speed and huge size and him getting into range for the characters to attack, with a human sized character in a dragoon who has far greater maneuverability(able to make elaborate turns during flight with ease) and far greater speed(able to cover the span of a couple of miles in a few seconds)? Lol. Simply because they both have 'flight' makes it nowhere near the same thing despite your failed attempt at trying to frame them as such.It's all about context. And don't be such a noob with forum verbage either, you aren't impressing anyone with your incorrect usage. There is no such demonstration of 'no limits fallacy' here.
Speed Blitzing a guy who can't fly and can only jump 50 or so feet is not a 'no limits fallacy' as it is LOWER than the limits demonstrated by the guy who will be doing the speed blitzing(Dart in dragoon form that is).
Cloud NEVER touched Sephiroth, but guess what, it wasn't due that Sephiroth was able to fly, it was because Cloud is not even near Sephiroth's capabilities as a warrior. And you're not getting the point. Being able to fly makes you untouchable in battle? I didn't know that.
Let's say there are two random guys, one of them have the ability to fly and the other doesn't. You would reach the conclusion that because one of them lacks that ability, he would automatically lose the battle for being unable to touch his opponent in the air because he can't fly, ignoring his other possible winning factors? Being unable to touch Dart is what you're implying here, basically. Even ignoring the fact that Dart also must get close to Cloud to be able to hit him, otherwise he can't win. Maybe I have exaggerated in using "No-Limit Fallacy" to label your argument, but it is pretty much faulty logic.
Sure, Dragoons are fast and agile when they flies. But the simply fact in being able to fly doesn't makes you unpunished in a battle, neither invincible.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I can accept that. But why the team leaves Dart alone, then?I know, many RPG games does that all the time.
Although yeah, I do believe there's not enough space to animate seven more people, however when the battle scene is set on, the scenario is expanded.Ok, tell me why you fight Lloyd with a party, then? If Dart is alone, then it doesn't make sense. They could have made Dart alone without a team in that fight, just as they did earlier in the tournament. Also, I don't see why Dart wouldn't use his powers as a Dragoon to fight Lloyd. That woman Theresa is first seen inside and then she's suddenly outside, but we never see her leaving, we have to assume she left before the fight?
There is plenty of space to have 7 people. Whether they are animated or not, does not matter. Who says they would have to? Keeping a static pose would be sufficient for the purpose at hand.
Why do you fight with a party you ask? What does it matter? The fight itself is a gameplay mechanic. The story was set up so that in that point the party is still following Dart and as such they are allowed to participate. It does not change the fact that canonically Dart is the only one shown fighting Lloyd.
This situation is not unique actually. Remember Emperor Doel? You have a party there, yet it is Dart alone who is credited with beating Doel. Kongol specifically refers to Dart in that regard when he sees the party again. Kongol says the world needs a strong leader and thus he will follow Dart saying specifically "You defeat Emperor Doel. Strong Strong Power. Stronger than Emperor Doel. Kongol wants to see where the power goes." So there you have it, Dart is above Doel, but a party was there for that fight anyway. This does not take long after the Doel fight anyway by the way. This is early disc 2 when they had not yet fought any new powerful foes, and Doel was the end fight of disc 1.
Could Dart have used his Dragoon form against Lloyd? Possibly. We don't see it though and we regularly see him finish fights without it as well. There was the danger of the Dragon Buster as well.
Dart gets stronger, you know? And how fast Lloyd is? He moves at super-sonic speed? The speed of sound? Light-speed? Why Cloud's speed won't be surprising? As far as I know he's damn fast. Also, Dart dodging a simple slash doesn't seem so amazing to me, it's not like he dodged a bullet or anything, it was a sword slash.Are you using A>B>C logic? Dart defeated his father with all of his team, the same goes to Melbu Frahma, so that shows literally nothing.
Cool, but Dart can't do anything of that, can he?
Lloyd is saiyan saga DBZ level fast. His casual speeds leave multiple after images, is able to casually dodge multiple tentacle whips from a god form Melbu Frahma at such a speed that he goes completely invisible several times, is able to move in front of a magic fireblast that was a foot away from killing a human woman all the while he was absolutely nowhere near the scene, is able to hit people without looking like he's moved at all. All casual speed.
Dart dodged a surprise sword slash from wingly such as Melbu, not only did he dodge he jumped back about 15 feet during this dodge. This is a big feat because of the superhuman abilities of winglies, especially a top tier wingly like Melbu. Lloyd himself casually stabbed Lavitz when he charged full speed at him in dragoon form. When you consider that Dragoons fly at very high super sonic speeds (they easily outrun volatile explosions that themselves would be up to 23 times faster than sound), then you get an idea for Lloyd's physical capabilities speed wise--Let alone an even superior Wingly like Melbu.
It's not A>B>C. It's simply an example of Dart reacting to a being already superior to the one who's reaction to is being questioned here. Melbu and Lloyd are both Winglies, all of which as a species are superhuman, with Melbu being superior.
One more thing, after Lloyd is defeated and he travels with you to Vellweb, he acts submissive toward Dart during the trip. Very telling.
Dart is super-human when you compare him to us. In that universe is a common feat to perform those things, also in Final Fantasy. A very well trained warrior (as you mention) is capable of doing exactly the same. Dragoons however, are considered beyond human levels. Look at Tifa. Tifa is not super-human, yet there you have her performing cool stuff and she was trained just by an old guy. However, she was owned by Loz who was literally playing with her, as he IS super-human. But, Cloud own Loz. Cloud is a genetically enhanced super-soldier, Cid Highwind is not, he's just some old airship-fan who is good with a Spear.
Superhuman compared to us? Who do you think we are comparing either of them to in the first place to come to the term 'super-human'? That's right, us, actual people, who are a known quantity.
...WTF....EVERY human in the FF7 Party is superhuman. The Turks as well were superhuman. Tifa gave Loz a good fight before he finally turned it up, and Cloud never onced 'owned' Loz either. Even during the times when Cloud was facing Loz alone, Loz was giving Cloud all he could handle and speed blitzed him a couple of times as well.
Cid is superhuman as well. He demonstrated immense strength and leaping ability in AC. You cannot stupidly ignore the actual superhuman feats in that movie and designate someone as superhuman by their origin story alone when people without said origin story have superhuman feats as well.
Cloud NEVER touched Sephiroth, but guess what, it wasn't due that Sephiroth was able to fly, it was because Cloud is not even near Sephiroth's capabilities as a warrior. And you're not getting the point. Being able to fly makes you untouchable in battle? I didn't know that.Let's say there are two random guys, one of them have the ability to fly and the other doesn't. You would reach the conclusion that because one of them lacks that ability, he would automatically lose the battle for being unable to touch his opponent in the air because he can't fly, ignoring his other possible winning factors? Being unable to touch Dart is what you're implying here, basically. Even ignoring the fact that Dart also must get close to Cloud to be able to hit him, otherwise he can't win. Maybe I have exaggerated in using "No-Limit Fallacy" to label your argument, but it is pretty much faulty logic.
Sure, Dragoons are fast and agile when they flies. But the simply fact in being able to fly doesn't makes you unpunished in a battle, neither invincible.
Cloud touched Sephiroth all right, but he never demonstrated the ability to touch an actively air blitzing Sephiroth. Nor could he touch that air slug Bahamut Sin once it started climbing higher, outside of his friends giving him a boost periodically. The examples are right there for you to see.
Your example is pointless as Cloud DOES NOT have any any winnable factors left once Dart goes into Dragoon form. Hell Dart already has superior durability even outside of Dragoon form. Cloud won't have a choice but to be flight blitzed if Dart wants to do it. Dragoons are too fast. Also who says Dart HAS to be close? He has magic too you know. He can also summon the Red Eyed Dragon from which he derives power as well, and then Cloud would be blitzed on two sides.