Dart and Haschel Vs. Cloud and Loz

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Superhuman compared to us? Who do you think we are comparing either of them to in the first place to come to the term 'super-human'? That's right, us, actual people, who are a known quantity.

...WTF....EVERY human in the FF7 Party is superhuman. The Turks as well were superhuman. Tifa gave Loz a good fight before he finally turned it up, and Cloud never onced 'owned' Loz either. Even during the times when Cloud was facing Loz alone, Loz was giving Cloud all he could handle and speed blitzed him a couple of times as well.

Cid is superhuman as well. He demonstrated immense strength and leaping ability in AC. You cannot stupidly ignore the actual superhuman feats in that movie and designate someone as superhuman by their origin story alone when people without said origin story have superhuman feats as well.

That's not quite right. If every person in a universe can perform those feats, then they aren't super human. They are just human.

Tifa got to where she was simply by training with some old guy. She has no abilities that cannot be obtained by anyone else willing to devote their time to learning them. The same is true for the other members of the team.

So by the FF7 standards, they are just human. But Cloud is a super human by the FF7 standards.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Lloyd is saiyan saga DBZ level fast.

Master Roshi and kid Krillin have done Lloyd's feats.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's not quite right. If every person in a universe can perform those feats, then they aren't super human. They are just human.

Tifa got to where she was simply by training with some old guy. She has no abilities that cannot be obtained by anyone else willing to devote their time to learning them. The same is true for the other members of the team.

So by the FF7 standards, they are just human. But Cloud is a super human by the FF7 standards.

But that isn't cool enough for fiction — in the land of make-believe, training can literally give you superhuman powers! Intense exercise can let you split boulders, jump three stories straight up, and make your skin bulletproof... somehow. "

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower

You're grabbing at a straw, and I am not really sure why, nor what your point is.

Originally posted by NemeBro
"The human body is a lot more resilient than some people give it credit for. Pound for pound, human bone is around three times as strong as concrete — but we don't allow our bodies to use the full strength inherent in their makeup, because to do so would result in damage. The vast bulk of any martial arts curriculum is actually body-hardening exercises designed to overcome these unconscious limiters ("Are you afraid of the board?!"😉, allowing the student to strike with more force.

But that isn't cool enough for fiction — in the land of make-believe, training can literally give you superhuman powers! Intense exercise can let you split boulders, jump three stories straight up, and make your skin bulletproof... somehow. "

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower

You're grabbing at a straw, and I am not really sure why, nor what your point is.

Actually. That right there is my point. In fiction, the characters can do super human stuff, without being super human. They are super human to US, but in fiction, they are just normal people who have trained hard enough to accomplish those things.

So the FF7 party, and the Turks, aren't super human. They don't need to be in order to do those things.

Cloud, on the other hand, IS canonly super human. And I mean super human in FF7 terms. That was the point.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Actually. That right there is my point. In fiction, the characters can do super human stuff, without being super human. They are super human to US, but in fiction, they are just normal people who have trained hard enough to accomplish those things.

So the FF7 party, and the Turks, aren't super human. They don't need to be in order to do those things.

Cloud, on the other hand, IS canonly super human. And I mean super human in FF7 terms. That was the point.

But your point is absolutely irrelevant to the debate or anything, what is the point of your point?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
There is plenty of space to have 7 people. Whether they are animated or not, does not matter. Who says they would have to? Keeping a static pose would be sufficient for the purpose at hand.

Why do you fight with a party you ask? What does it matter? The fight itself is a gameplay mechanic. The story was set up so that in that point the party is still following Dart and as such they are allowed to participate. It does not change the fact that canonically Dart is the only one shown fighting Lloyd.

This situation is not unique actually. Remember Emperor Doel? You have a party there, yet it is Dart alone who is credited with beating Doel. Kongol specifically refers to Dart in that regard when he sees the party again. Kongol says the world needs a strong leader and thus he will follow Dart saying specifically "You defeat Emperor Doel. Strong Strong Power. Stronger than Emperor Doel. Kongol wants to see where the power goes."

Could Dart have used his Dragoon form against Lloyd? Possibly. We don't see it though and we regularly see him finish fights without it as well. There was the danger of the Dragon Buster as well.

Incorrect.

They do not necessarily have to be animated to let us know they are with Dart, my point the whole time. A game mechanic has nothing to do with anything. If Dart is supposedly alone, then you must fight Lloyd canonically alone, thus control Dart canonically alone in the fight. Then there must be a reason for the party to leave him alone to handle everything. Guess what, none of them had a reason to leave Dart alone, there's not indication of such thing either. Never mind they are canonically there to rescue Queen Theresa and to bring the Moon Objects. When they arrives, Dart says "Lloyd! Finally, we cornered him!", the party does a "Hell yeah" gesture and there's an indication that all of them goes with Dart and NEVER leaves him. They were traveling all the way together, if they leaves Dart alone, it could have been clearly specified. Never mind the fact that when you teleport inside, Lloyd looks at Dart and says "Here THEY are" not "Here you are". They never left Dart, they were always with him. They fought as a party and at the end of the battle Lloyd was almost defeated by Dart's last attacks. Never mind the fact that they were RETURNING FROM UPTAIRS AFTER that cutscene, therefore AFTER the fight with Lloyd ended. Dart stayed with Lloyd and Wink afterwards, then he returned with the rest of the party. Nice theory, but in fact, you are incorrect. You are going to have to deal with this.

That automatic-programmed movement when Dart usually performs and deals the "final blow" to the bosses, means jack-shit. Do not fool yourself, he fought all of the bosses with his entire party. The only ones Dart fought by himself and with no powers are those guys from the tournament, whose are pretty much normal humans.

Stop overrating Dart, he's starting to look bad and he's one of my favorite characters.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Lloyd is saiyan saga DBZ level fast. His casual speeds leave multiple after images, is able to casually dodge multiple tentacle whips from a god form Melbu Frahma at such a speed that he goes completely invisible several times, is able to move in front of a magic fireblast that was a foot away from killing a human woman all the while he was absolutely nowhere near the scene, is able to hit people without looking like he's moved at all. All casual speed.

Dart dodged a surprise sword slash from wingly such as Melbu, not only did he dodge he jumped back about 15 feet during this dodge. This is a big feat because of the superhuman abilities of winglies, especially a top tier wingly like Melbu. Lloyd himself casually stabbed Lavitz when he charged full speed at him in dragoon form. When you consider that Dragoons fly at very high super sonic speeds (they easily outrun volatile explosions that themselves would be up to 23 times faster than sound), then you get an idea for Lloyd's physical capabilities speed wise--Let alone an even superior Wingly like Melbu.

It's not A>B>C. It's simply an example of Dart reacting to a being already superior to the one who's reaction to is being questioned here. Melbu and Lloyd are both Winglies, all of which as a species are superhuman, with Melbu being superior.

One more thing, after Lloyd is defeated and he travels with you to Vellweb, he acts submissive toward Dart during the trip. Very telling.

Superhuman compared to us? Who do you think we are comparing either of them to in the first place to come to the term 'super-human'? That's right, us, actual people, who are a known quantity.

...WTF....EVERY human in the FF7 Party is superhuman. The Turks as well were superhuman. Tifa gave Loz a good fight before he finally turned it up, and Cloud never onced 'owned' Loz either. Even during the times when Cloud was facing Loz alone, Loz was giving Cloud all he could handle and speed blitzed him a couple of times as well.

Cid is superhuman as well. He demonstrated immense strength and leaping ability in AC. You cannot stupidly ignore the actual superhuman feats in that movie and designate someone as superhuman by their origin story alone when people without said origin story have superhuman feats as well.

Sure, Lloyd is fast. But If you're talking about the scene when he's protecting Wink, it looked like a teleportation. And that self-destruct thing wounded him badly there, so it could have killed Dart, easily.

Dart dodged a simple sword slash, stop overrating him, please, thanks.
Lavitz charged at Lloyd and it was taken down by one stab, so I don't know what the hell are you talking about. The Winglies are superior to human beings because they can use Magic abilities, fly naturally, among other unique capabilities. Something Dart and his party (except Meru and Kongol) lacks if they're not using Dragoon forms. Dart is a normal human. The best feat I saw from The Legend Of Dragoon was from Haschel breaking a stone wall with a special skill, other than that, nothing special.

No, Cloud's party by fact aren't super-humans, neither the Turks, you're completely wrong about that. Tifa trained to become what she is by the old master Zangan who had plently of pupils. Loz was playing with Tifa, that's stated. Tifa's punches were nothing more than caresses to him. She didn't even noticed when Loz attacked, it was too fast for her eyes to see, whereas Cloud did with ease. Cloud was dealing with Loz, Kadaj, Yazoo and being shoot the whole time by them. Cloud IS a genetically enhanced super-soldier, thus super-human. Deal with it.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Cloud touched Sephiroth all right, but he never demonstrated the ability to touch an actively air blitzing Sephiroth. Nor could he touch that air slug Bahamut Sin once it started climbing higher, outside of his friends giving him a boost periodically. The examples are right there for you to see.

Your example is pointless as Cloud DOES NOT have any any winnable factors left once Dart goes into Dragoon form. Hell Dart already has superior durability even outside of Dragoon form. Cloud won't have a choice but to be flight blitzed if Dart wants to do it. Dragoons are too fast. Also who says Dart HAS to be close? He has magic too you know. He can also summon the Red Eyed Dragon from which he derives power as well, and then Cloud would be blitzed on two sides.

He NEVER touched Sephiroth, it was Cloud the one that has been pwned by every way possible. My point is that you don't need flying abilities to win a fight. When Bahamut-Sin started going higher, is obviously that Cloud couldn't reach him, it was too high and he hadn't any platforms or buildings to be able to keep up with him. Never mind the fact that Bahamut-Sin did it to destroy the entire city as a result of his last effort. However, Cloud pretty much fought it through air, by climbing, using his agility, reflexes and strength, even smacking him down with his sword, the monster was losing to Cloud. Unless you suggest that Dart is going to escape, if that's the case, then yes, Cloud would never reach him.

Dart can effortlessly cut pieces of building like butter with a single hand, take and survive 4 stabs through the chest? Not that I need those AC feats. Lavitz pretty much died when taking just one and in Dragoon form. What does Dart got above Cloud? His wings? His flying ability? It is not an requirement to win a battle. Magic? So what, Cloud uses Materia. Dart calls an outside help? By your definiton he's strong enough to "take" Cloud by himself just in his regular form. Let's put a Summon Materia to Cloud, shall we? And yes, Dart must also get close to Cloud to attack, or he's going to spend his whole day flying and throwing fire-balls? This isn't a race. Let's not make our own versions of the fight using imaginative fan-ficton, let's debate rationally about who would win, shall we? Lloyd is a more experienced warrior in the swordsmanship department and far more powerful magic-wise, so comparing him to Dart is a damn joke. Dart is a strong warrior, no denying that, but I don't see him beating someone like Cloud who even surpasses Zack in skill. Lloyd would be a good opponent for him though.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I know what point you are making.

But your point is absolutely irrelevant to the debate or anything, what is the point of your point?

Cosmicomet said all the characters from FF7 where super human. I was simply pointing out that that is incorrect.

theyre super human by our standards ermm

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre super human by our standards ermm

Yes, but no one is comparing them to us. It's the fantasy standards that count in these debates.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, but no one is comparing them to us.

And mayber Griever, but who gives a shit what he thinks anyway?

Regardless, your point, has no point.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You are the only one not comparing them to us. no expression

And mayber Griever, but who gives a shit what he thinks anyway?

You do. No one needs to compare them to us, they are normal humans by their standards, not by ours.

Cid Highwind for instance, is just a pilot who is good with a Spear, he's not super-human.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You are the only one not comparing them to us. 😐

And mayber Griever, but who gives a shit what he thinks anyway?

Regardless, your point, has no point.

What do you mean my point has no point? Did you completely miss the part where cosmiccomet made the claim that all FF7 characters where super human? I quoted him. THAT was what I was responding to. I'm having trouble understanding your confusion here... 😬

Been busy, still am. Will reply to that weaksauce post by Griever when I can, Friday maybe.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean my point has no point? Did you completely miss the part where cosmiccomet made the claim that all FF7 characters where super human? I quoted him. THAT was what I was responding to. I'm having trouble understanding your confusion here... 😬

Btw, kindly learn to not be incompetent and don't misquote people.

I said everyone in the FF7 party is superhuman. Other combatants like the Turks specifically as well. Which is true. No actual human is capable of the feats they have in AC.

--Their designation in their own universe is of no importance. Not that this has anything to do with ANYTHING in this debate. Not even sure why Griever brought it up in the first place.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean my point has no point? Did you completely miss the part where cosmiccomet made the claim that all FF7 characters where super human? I quoted him. THAT was what I was responding to. I'm having trouble understanding your confusion here... 😬

Your point means absolutely ****ing nothing, it has no real point, it is useless nitpicking that does nothing for the debate, whether they are superhuman within their own verse is irrelevant when compared to another verse, though really normal FFVII humans are just like us, so all it REALLY means is that the FFVII human potential is greater, so even within FFVII they are practically superhuman.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Been busy, still am. Will reply to that weaksauce post by Griever when I can, Friday maybe.

Who are you talking to?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Which has nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno bearing on the outcome of this fight at all! =D

Your point means absolutely ****ing nothing, it has no real point, it is useless nitpicking that does nothing for the debate, whether they are superhuman within their own verse is irrelevant when compared to another verse, though really normal FFVII humans are just like us, so all it REALLY means is that the FFVII human potential is greater, so even within FFVII they are practically superhuman.

Cloud's party aren't super-humans, neither the Turks, Cloud is. The Legend Of Dragoon characters are normal humans, except Lloyd, Kongol or maybe Meru. All of them trained to become strong. No one needs to compare them to us. Just look at Bruce Lee for a moment, he was considered the strongest fighter in the world, but he was super-human? Of course not, he trained hard to be able to reach that potential. The same with these characters, they may be "super-humans" when you compare them to us, but they are humans whose trained to attain such strengths.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Btw, kindly learn to not be incompetent and don't misquote people.

I said everyone in the FF7 [b]party is superhuman. Other combatants like the Turks specifically as well. Which is true. No actual human is capable of the feats they have in AC.

--Their designation in their own universe is of no importance. Not that this has anything to do with ANYTHING in this debate. Not even sure why Griever brought it up in the first place. [/B]

HA ha. I know what you meant. When I said all FF7 characters I meant the main ones, not civilians. You should probably not be so hasty when throwing words like incompetent around.

Yes, no ACTUAL human. As in, human from our world. Not human from FF7. If we lived in the FF7 universe, we could do it to.

I think GreiverSquall's original point was that Dart or whatever isn't a super human, and Cloud is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Which has nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno bearing on the outcome of this fight at all! =D

Your point means absolutely ****ing nothing, it has no real point, it is useless nitpicking that does nothing for the debate, whether they are superhuman within their own verse is irrelevant when compared to another verse, though really normal FFVII humans are just like us, so all it REALLY means is that the FFVII human potential is greater, so even within FFVII they are practically superhuman.

That isn't true. It does have relevance. We are determining who is super human and who isn't.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think GreiverSquall's original point was that Dart or whatever isn't a super human, and Cloud is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct.

Dart is a human.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That isn't true. It does have relevance. We are determining who is super human and who isn't.

Exactly.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud's party aren't super-humans, neither the Turks, Cloud is. The Legend Of Dragoon characters are normal humans, except Lloyd, Kongol or maybe Meru. All of them trained to become strong. No one needs to compare them to us. Just look at Bruce Lee for a moment, he was considered the strongest fighter in the world, but he was super-human? Of course not, he trained hard to be able to reach that potential. The same with these characters, they may be "super-humans" when you compare them to us, but they are humans whose trained to attain such strengths.

First of all, a glorified movie star was never the strongest fighter in the world, he was not then, and he would not be now.

Bruce Lee is a normal human being biologically. There are people right now who are as good and even far better fighters than Bruce Lee ever was. No human being is capable of training to the level of the LoD or FFVII characters are, which makes them superhuman in a practical sense. Does it make them technically superhuman in their own verse? No it doesn't, but that has no relevance within a vs. debate.

Originally posted by TacDavey
HA ha. I know what you meant. When I said all FF7 characters I meant the main ones, not civilians. You should probably not be so hasty when throwing words like incompetent around.

Yes, no ACTUAL human. As in, human from our world. Not human from FF7. If we lived in the FF7 universe, we could do it to.

I think GreiverSquall's original point was that Dart or whatever isn't a super human, and Cloud is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That isn't true. It does have relevance. We are determining who is super human and who isn't.

2. Actually, no, you could not, not without a lot of training, most FFVII humans are likes us, relatively frail. And that, once again, has no relevance to the debate at hand.

3. What counts as superhuman in one verse can be below a trained human in another. Akuma/Gouki is a human being who trained to become as powerful as he is. He can sink islands, split mountains, and level forests. He would effortlessly crush Cloud. Yet since Cloud is technically superhuman within his own verse, would that give him the win? No, it would not.

4. What counts as superhuman in one verse or another has no bearing when comparing other verses, not even necessarily within the same verse, a technical super in one verse can lose to a technical normal from another.