Dart and Haschel Vs. Cloud and Loz

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yes, they should be, because their feats are superhuman ones, relative to us, which are the standard for humans.

First of all, a glorified movie star was never the strongest fighter in the world, he was not then, and he would not be now.

Bruce Lee is a normal human being biologically. There are people right now who are as good and even far better fighters than Bruce Lee ever was. No human being is capable of training to the level of the LoD or FFVII characters are, which makes them superhuman in a practical sense. Does it make them technically superhuman in their own verse? No it doesn't, but that has no relevance within a vs. debate.

But they are normal humans under their standards, not by ours. They are "super-human" and performs "super-human" feats when you compare them to us. Is the way YOU look at them.

THIS is irrelevant. Being an actor has nothing to do with anything.

Even so, Bruce WAS the best. Normal humans can destroy hard pieces of ice with a single hand, break bricks with ease and give you a mortal blow, so that speaks absolutely about everything, but you must train to attain such strengths, and capabilities. EXACTLY, they look super-human to US. It's fiction, you don't need to compare them to us. It's their standard what works here, not ours.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Actually, no, you could not, not without a lot of training, most FFVII humans are likes us, relatively frail. And that, once again, has no relevance to the debate at hand.

2. What counts as superhuman in one verse can be below a trained human in another. Akuma/Gouki is a human being who trained to become as powerful as he is. He can sink islands, split mountains, and level forests. He would effortlessly crush Cloud. Yet since Cloud is technically superhuman within his own verse, would that give him the win? No, it would not.What counts as superhuman in one verse or another has no bearing when comparing other verses, not even necessarily within the same verse, a technical super in one verse can lose to a technical normal from another.

I agree, not without a lot of training. Look at Tifa, she must have trained hard.

If you compare... Let's say, Krillin to Cid Highwind, then yes, unfortunately, this isn't the case. Dart is human, we have someone like Lloyd to compare, who is above-human capabilitites. We have the game itself making references about the different races. That's the way it is. Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game.

Now, if nothing of this has relevance because you're soooooooooo overconfident about relevancy, it's about time for you to post something relevant.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. But it is an apt description for you. 🙂

2. Actually, no, you could not, not without a lot of training, most FFVII humans are likes us, relatively frail. And that, once again, has no relevance to the debate at hand.

3. What counts as superhuman in one verse can be below a trained human in another. Akuma/Gouki is a human being who trained to become as powerful as he is. He can sink islands, split mountains, and level forests. He would effortlessly crush Cloud. Yet since Cloud is technically superhuman within his own verse, would that give him the win? No, it would not.

4. What counts as superhuman in one verse or another has no bearing when comparing other verses, not even necessarily within the same verse, a technical super in one verse can lose to a technical normal from another.

1. Here, I must disagree. But that's a debate for another time.

2. Well, yeah. Tifa had a lot of training and look what she can do. I never said you could just do it. You would need to train, but it would be more than possible and with no upgrades or super powers needed.

3. I never said it would. A normal human can beat a super human. Being a super human doesn't grantee victory over a human. It does give them an advantage though.

4. Yes, again, it's possible for a human to beat a super human. No one here is claiming super human = victory. It's just one point.

Who is winning so far?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But they are normal humans under their standards, not by ours. They are "super-human" and performs "super-human" feats when you compare them to us. Is the way YOU look at them.

[b]THIS is irrelevant. Being an actor has nothing to do with anything.

Even so, Bruce WAS the best. Normal humans can destroy hard pieces of ice with a single hand, break bricks with ease and give you a mortal blow, so that speaks absolutely about everything, but you must train to attain such strengths, and capabilities. EXACTLY, they look super-human to US. It's fiction, you don't need to compare them to us. It's their standard what works here, not ours.

I agree, not without a lot of training. Look at Tifa, she must have trained hard.

If you compare... Let's say, Krillin to Cid Highwind, then yes, unfortunately, this isn't the case. Dart is human, we have someone like Lloyd to compare, who is above-human capabilitites. We have the game itself making references about the different races. That's the way it is. Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game.

Now, if nothing of this has relevance because you're soooooooooo overconfident about relevancy, it's about time for you to post something relevant. [/B]

2. Was not my point. The man was an actor, he was not the best fighter of his day, let alone of all time. Bruce Lee as a fighter is so ****ing overrated, he once fought a skilled Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. He lost. Was Lee a skilled martial artist? Yeah. Was he a world-class fighter? No.

3. Joe Lewis was better than Bruce even back in the day, due to, you know, actually being a real, seasoned fighter. Also, as a man who trained with Lee alot, he confirmed he is not that great. Killing a human being with your bare hands is not very hard actually, depends on where you strike them. Define a hard piece of ice. 😐 Also, there are much better physical feats. There is a man who can deadlift 1,013 pounds, people have pulled 200 tons, and one man stopped a plane from taking off by clipping it to his hair. Those are feats sorta possibly attainable through training. They do not just look superhuman, no human being would be able to achieve a level such as that.

4. Obviously. Hard to the point that she is capable of superhuman feats.

5. It doesn't matter. If Dart as a normal human is capable of more impressive feats than Cloud, then that makes him stronger than Cloud, superhuman or no. Cloud is above his party. I never disputed that, but someone with so lacking an intellect as you assumed I did.

6. I am. That whether Dart in his verse is technically superhuman has no bearing on the outcome of this fight.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1. Here, I must disagree. But that's a debate for another time.

2. Well, yeah. Tifa had a lot of training and look what she can do. I never said you could just do it. You would need to train, but it would be more than possible and with no upgrades or super powers needed.

3. I never said it would. A normal human can beat a super human. Being a super human doesn't grantee victory over a human. It does give them an advantage though.

4. Yes, again, it's possible for a human to beat a super human. No one here is claiming super human = victory. It's just one point.

3. Oh really? Pray-tell what "advantage" Cloud has over Gouki then? Considering as genetically altered as he is, being a technical super, Gouki is stronger, faster, more durable, a better fighter, and far more powerful. What advantage does Cloud have over Gouki then? What advantage does his status as a super give him? What the status he is in his own verse means NOTHING when against another.

4. One that has nothing to do with who wins.

Also, Webstered it.

You're wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superhuman

"exceeding normal human power, size, or capability"

So if your training gives you greater than human power, capability, or size (Though prolly not this one...), you are by definition a superhuman.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. And their standards are utterly irrelevant. It is only the comparison between the characters. That is the way I look at them, a character's "human" status in his own verse is irrelevant in a vs. thread.

2. Was not my point. The man was an actor, he was not the best fighter of his day, let alone of all time. Bruce Lee as a fighter is so ****ing overrated, he once fought a skilled Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. He lost. Was Lee a skilled martial artist? Yeah. Was he a world-class fighter? No.

3. Joe Lewis was better than Bruce even back in the day, due to, you know, actually being a real, seasoned fighter. Also, as a man who trained with Lee alot, he confirmed he is not that great. Killing a human being with your bare hands is not very hard actually, depends on where you strike them. Define a hard piece of ice. no expression Also, there are much better physical feats. There is a man who can deadlift 1,013 pounds, people have pulled 200 tons, and one man stopped a plane from taking off by clipping it to his hair. Those are feats sorta possibly attainable through training. They do not just look superhuman, no human being would be able to achieve a level such as that.

4. Obviously. Hard to the point that she is capable of superhuman feats.

5. It doesn't matter. If Dart as a normal human is capable of more impressive feats than Cloud, then that makes him stronger than Cloud, superhuman or no. Cloud is above his party. I never disputed that, but someone with so lacking an intellect as you assumed I did.

6. I am. That whether Dart in his verse is technically superhuman has no bearing on the outcome of this fight.

You were comparing them to us, actual people, from the real world, that is irrelevant. Any character in fiction will look always "super-human" if you compare them to us. No one needs to do that here. Unless is X-Men, which humans are like US.

But you keep saying he was an actor, so what? That does not change absolutely anything when taking into consideration his capabilities in battle. And I said that Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter, also the most influential martial artist. I didn't said he was undefeated, nor invincible.

That proves even further my point, if Joe Lewis was an awesome fighter, then there you have, but he's still human, he just trained damn hard to achieve those things, but is still under human's capabilities. Indeed, but martial artists knows very well where to strike. Bruce Lee has a lot of physical feats a well, like thrusting his fingers through unopened cans of Coca-Cola, snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind, etc. Look for them in Wikipedia.

She's a strong human. Cloud IS super-human.

I haven't seen any. And you assumed that I assumed you did, which is wrong, mate.

But who says he's technically super-human?

Seriously, you're trying hard, and there's no need for you, such intelligent being, to do that. We all got your points, a human in one Universe can be super-powerful compared to another human in a different Universe, like, you know... Comparing Krillin to Cid Highwind.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You're wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superhuman

"exceeding normal human power, size, or capability"

So if your training gives you greater than human power, capability, or size (Though prolly not this one...), you are by definition a superhuman.

"Superhuman can mean an improved human, for example, by genetic modification, cybernetic implants, or as what humans might evolve into, in the distant future. Occasionally, it could mean an otherwise "normal" human with unusual abilities, such as psychic abilities, flying abilities, or exceptional proficiency at something, far beyond the norm.

Superhuman can also mean something that is not human, but considered to be "superior" to humans in some ways. A robot that easily passed the Turing test, and could do some things humans cannot, could be considered superhuman. A very intelligent or strong alien could be considered superhuman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhuman

That definition suits me better than yours.

Training doesn't gives you more than human power, training makes you a stronger human.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. In FFVII? Sure. Here or another verse? No, in the case of the other verse not necessarily.

3. Oh really? Pray-tell what "advantage" Cloud has over Gouki then? Considering as genetically altered as he is, being a technical super, Gouki is stronger, faster, more durable, a better fighter, and far more powerful. What advantage does Cloud have over Gouki then? What advantage does his status as a super give him? What the status he is in his own verse means NOTHING when against another.

4. One that has nothing to do with who wins.

Also, Webstered it.

You're wrong.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superhuman

"exceeding normal human power, size, or capability"

So if your training gives you greater than human power, capability, or size (Though prolly not this one...), you are by definition a superhuman.

2. Well, look at the verse then. Are the characters doing super human stuff without being super human? Then I guess it applies to that verse as well.

3. I have no idea who Gouki is. But did you just say Gouki is technically a super human? Then I would say Clouds status as a super human doesn't give him an advantage against Gouki, since they are both super humans.

4. Really? I think it does. If you have a super human and a human, it is more logical to say the super human would win the fight. Does it guarantee a victory? No. It DOES have to be responded to though.

I want to point out a very important part of that definition.

"exceeding normal human"

So, if you are a normal human who trains to a certain level, you are not super human because you have done nothing a normal human couldn't do. Which is obvious since your a normal human, and you just did it.

You can't become a super human through training.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You were comparing them to us, actual people, from the real world, that is irrelevant. Any character in fiction will look always "super-human" if you compare them to us. No one needs to do that here. Unless is X-Men, which humans are like US.

But you keep saying he was an actor, so what? That does not change absolutely anything when taking into consideration his capabilities in battle. And I said that Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter, also the most influential martial artist. I didn't said he was undefeated, nor invincible.

That proves even further my point, if Joe Lewis was an awesome fighter, then there you have, but he's still human, he just trained damn hard to achieve those things, but is still under human's capabilities. Indeed, but martial artists knows very well where to strike. Bruce Lee has a lot of physical feats a well, like thrusting his fingers through unopened cans of Coca-Cola, snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind, etc. Look for them in Wikipedia.

She's a strong human. Cloud IS super-human.

I haven't seen any. And you assumed that I assumed you did, which is wrong, mate.

But who says he's technically super-human?

Seriously, you're trying hard, and there's no need for you, such intelligent being, to do that. We all got your points, a human in one Universe can be super-powerful compared to another human in a different Universe, like, you know... Comparing Krillin to Cid Highwind.

"Superhuman can mean an improved human, for example, by genetic modification, cybernetic implants, or as what humans might evolve into, in the distant future. Occasionally, it could mean an otherwise "normal" human with unusual abilities, such as psychic abilities, flying abilities, or exceptional proficiency at something, far beyond the norm.

Superhuman can also mean something that is not human, but considered to be "superior" to humans in some ways. A robot that easily passed the Turing test, and could do some things humans cannot, could be considered superhuman. A very intelligent or strong alien could be considered superhuman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhuman

That definition suits me better than yours.

Training doesn't gives you more than human power, training makes you a stronger human.

2. Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter by people who have no idea what they are talking about. Tell me... What capabilities in battle? Not movie shit, no, show me what makes him a world-class fighter. He has nothing resembling a professional fight record.

3. Yeah, and not one human being to have ever lived can do some of the things the supposed "humans" in FFVII or LoD can do, which means that they have superhuman abilities. Also, physically speaking, martial artists are not the most impressive specimens alive except in regards to endurance and maybe reaction-time. Strongmen are the strongest men in the world, sprinters are the fastest in the world, etc. I know what Bruce Lee's physical feats are, they are not the best a human is capable of.

4. I have to ask, do you believe a human being could train themselves to the physical level Tifa or Yuffie are at? Because your post implies that you do. While Cloud is stronger than Tifa, Gouki, a trained human, is far stronger than Cloud.

5. "Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game." This statement strongly implies that I did not think Cloud was above his party, something I never so much as hinted at. If this was not your intended meaning, you are inept at conveying a point in written form. Which is it?

6. The better question is: Who cares if he is technically superhuman? It means absolutely nothing if Dart is capable of greater feats than Cloud.

7. I know. Which is why whether Cloud or Dart are technical supers or not makes no difference in this fight.

8. I'm sorry, wikipedia vs. Merriam Webster's dictionary? Nah man, try harder.

Originally posted by TacDavey
2. Well, look at the verse then. Are the characters doing super human stuff without being super human? Then I guess it applies to that verse as well.

3. I have no idea who Gouki is. But did you just say Gouki is technically a super human? Then I would say Clouds status as a super human doesn't give him an advantage against Gouki, since they are both super humans.

4. Really? I think it does. If you have a super human and a human, it is more logical to say the super human would win the fight. Does it guarantee a victory? No. It DOES have to be responded to though.

I want to point out a very important part of that definition.

"[B]exceeding normal human"

So, if you are a normal human who trains to a certain level, you are not super human because you have done nothing a normal human couldn't do. Which is obvious since your a normal human, and you just did it.

You can't become a super human through training. [/B]

3. No, I didn't, read my post again. Gouki is a human who trained to his level. And you ignored my point, what advantage does Cloud, a technical super, have over Gouki, a technical human?

4. No, it really does not, unless the "human" is truly only of normal human capabilities, when the human can perform superhuman feats, any advantage of only being a "superhuman" is gone. Really, titles should not hold any real clout regardless.

Normal human capability? What is a normal human?

The average human.

Super means above.

The average human male can lift, say, 150 pounds above his head.

If a human has trained to lift twice that or more, they are technically superhuman.

Not that the title means anything.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Because all superhuman feats are equalised right? FFVII characters are capable of superhuman physical feats. As are the trained humans in Dragonball. Tell me, who do you think is the stronger "human?"

3. No, I didn't, read my post again. Gouki is a human who trained to his level. And you ignored my point, what advantage does Cloud, a technical super, have over Gouki, a technical human?

4. No, it really does not, unless the "human" is truly only of normal human capabilities, when the human can perform superhuman feats, any advantage of only being a "superhuman" is gone. Really, titles should not hold any real clout regardless.

Normal human capability? What is a normal human?

The average human.

Super means above.

The average human male can lift, say, 150 pounds above his head.

If a human has trained to lift twice that or more, they are technically superhuman.

Not that the title means anything.

2. I already agreed that it is possible for humans to still defeat super humans.

Like I said, if all we know of the two characters is that one is a super human and one isn't. The super human takes the fight. Now, the normal human in this case is going to have to be like the DBZ example. It needs enough evidence to prove that it is stronger than the other even though the other one is a super human.

3. Like I said, I don't know who Gouki is. But the advantage a super human has over a normal human is the potential to move past a normal humans boundaries. Since Gouki is a normal human, he can only get as strong as is humanly possible. However, a super human can go past that limit.

4. Nemebro, are you really saying that the fact that Cloud is genetically enhanced past the strength of a normal person is absolutely irrelevant to who would win in a fight? Honestly? That sounds pretty relevant to me. Does it prove Cloud would win? Nope. Never claimed it did. It IS relevant though. As relevant as the fact that Dart, or whoever, can fly, or Ultimicia uses time magic, or Squall is a highly trained mercenary. All these things are relevant when considering someones capabilities in a fight.

I'm sorry, Nemebro, but you are just wrong. If a normal person can do it. It isn't super human. End of story. You say a normal person trained to higher levels than average? Okay, but a NORMAL PERSON DID IT, didn't he. Therefore IT IS POSSIBLE FOR NORMAL PEOPLE TO DO IT. Thus, it isn't super human.

Bruce Lee wasn't super human. He was way high up in human standards but in the end, anyone could reach his level given enough training. He wasn't super human, because any normal person could do what he did.

A super human is someone who goes beyond what is possible for a human. If a human can do it, they aren't super human. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Yeah, I know, humans. Though even compared to the humans of their world, the gap between them and those humands and us is the same, everyday humans in FFVII are just as relatively weak as us. This means that in FFVII, human potential is greater. Any character in fiction? No, not really, not at all honestly, being superhuman is a meaningless title when comparing characters from other verses.

2. Bruce Lee was considered the best fighter by people who have no idea what they are talking about. Tell me... What capabilities in battle? Not movie shit, no, show me what makes him a world-class fighter. He has nothing resembling a professional fight record.

3. Yeah, and not one human being to have ever lived can do some of the things the supposed "humans" in FFVII or LoD can do, which means that they have superhuman abilities. Also, physically speaking, martial artists are not the most impressive specimens alive except in regards to endurance and maybe reaction-time. Strongmen are the strongest men in the world, sprinters are the fastest in the world, etc. I know what Bruce Lee's physical feats are, they are not the best a human is capable of.

4. I have to ask, do you believe a human being could train themselves to the physical level Tifa or Yuffie are at? Because your post implies that you do. While Cloud is stronger than Tifa, Gouki, a trained human, is far stronger than Cloud.

5. "Cloud is above all of his party, including the Turks, he's a genetically enhanced super-soldier. Play the game." This statement strongly implies that I did not think Cloud was above his party, something I never so much as hinted at. If this was not your intended meaning, you are inept at conveying a point in written form. Which is it?

6. The better question is: Who cares if he is technically superhuman? It means absolutely nothing if Dart is capable of greater feats than Cloud.

7. I know. Which is why whether Cloud or Dart are technical supers or not makes no difference in this fight.

8. I'm sorry, wikipedia vs. Merriam Webster's dictionary? Nah man, try harder.

Normal human capability? What is a normal human?

The average human.

Super means above.

The average human male can lift, say, 150 pounds above his head.

If a human has trained to lift twice that or more, they are technically superhuman.

Not that the title means anything.

Then they aren't weak as us, that's why you shouldn't compare them to us. Yes, in almost any fiction humans characters looks "super-human" to us, maybe without much training as us they can do more stuff.

His capabilities? Dunno, like being the founder of the Jeet Kune Do martial arts? Or knowing other several martial disciplines? What is this so important now? Bruce Lee was just a point, I'm not arguing whether he's the absolutely strongest man on Earth, is a point, it shows you can be a strong as them by training, just as someone who can sing, it's an ability, acquired through natural training, also a natural talent. How comes those people doesn't know about what they're talking about when you're the one asking stuff? Do not undervalue people's knowledge, maybe the one who doesn't know anything is you.

That's their standards, not ours. Good, and those other "specimens" had training to achieve those things. But I suppose a sprinter wouldn't beat a martial artist, right? You know, 'cuz of their kind of training.

I believe no one has stated such thing. Because, and once again, you are comparing fictional characters and their standards to ours. A human in Final Fantasy VII would be able to do the same, therefore Tifa is a strong trained human. Gouki? Look at my previous post, I responded to it, I said a human from one Universe can be super-powerful compared to another human from other Universe, which is not the issue, the issue comes when you compare them to us. I believe Gouki nor Krillin are in this thread either, never mind the fact that they aren't even comparable to Cloud or Dart, so that won't save your stance.

Not necessarily, I was making a reference to CosmicComet's posts, precisely, since he said the Turks were super-human as well as Cloud's party, which is not true, at all. "Play the game" was for you though, yes, because I thought you didn't. Sir, there's no need for you to brought up such arrogant attitude, by insulting me only allows me to look at you from above, and do not pretend I'm going to bring myself down to your level.

Look at Tifa's feats. Cloud's far beyond that. A simple SOLDIER wouldn't be match for a human. They are genetically advanced supe-humans. So being super-human does have relevance, it isn't just a title. Feats aren't everything either, you don't neeed them to know someone is strong.

It does have a better detailed description, though. That makes you a stronger human. That does not gives you power far beyond humans capabilities which can be accessed by natural training. If you, suddenly, let's say... obtain the ability to fly, then yes, you would be considered super-human.