Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusIf you're this paranoid about the writer's intention don't read them.
Yea Kandy, where do you draw the line? Nate Grey said that he and Sentry took on a rogue Thor on together. Are we really supposed to believe that bullshit? I mean seriously, what kind of a chance could they possibly stand?
I, too, am in the camp of those that believe Kubiks statement was done as a retcon; otherwise Kubik making that statement and being scared of the non-named Celestials' pending judgement makes absolutely no sense at all...
Kubik doesnt make many appearances, but I am willing to bet money that we never see him warping entire universes ever again...
And asumming he hasnt been retconned (and I am convinced that he was) that makes the Celestials stupidly powerful (supremely overpowered that is); hell, why send Galactus and the abstracts against Thanos in the Infinity Gauntlet series!? Just send the 4th Celestial host + Exitar and you'd have enough firepower to beat Thanos (with the Gauntlet), Eternity, and Bloody atleast 2 of the Tribunals faces...
Galan, you claim that Kubik wasnt retconned...I disagree...I believe there is enough circumstancial evidence present to support Kubik being retconned vs evidence stating that he's still capable of warping an entire resisting universe with ease...
And the circumstancial evidence is:
1) A lone Celestial doesnt possess the power to warp entire universes.
2) Kubik flatly saying he was several orders of magnitude beneath a lone Celestial.
3) Kubik being afraid of the judgement of a lone Celestial.
This is, IMHO, one of the clearest cases of a retcon that I have ever seen...
And if Kubik isnt retconned, then 1-3 are false (and I am 100% certain that #1 is true); as for 2 and 3, given the situation, I can find no logical explanantion for Kubik lying and pretending he was scared if he really wasnt...
Originally posted by Galan007
So if a no-name Celestial is FAR more powerful then a guy who can warp entire universes with the utmost of ease, then exactly what level of power are you placing them at? Multiversal?If so, do you truly think that one statement with absolutely no feats to back it up, warrants such a placement? Do you think that Celestials are equal to someone like Mxy, even though Mxy has feats, and all Celestials have are statements? Do you think Sentry did in fact stalemate Galactus?
Where do we draw the line?
The Kubik statement was canon when it was presented on panel,
but we must acknowledge that said statement was then retconned.
Why?
Well because Kubik made that statement in FF Annual #26,
but in FF Annual #27, full potential Owen Reece states that ONLY he surpasses Beyonder's power.
This is strange but,
Eternity's 2006 bio confirms that Beyonder was indeed a threat to him,
plus
Mistress Death's 2006 bio credits Post-Retcon Beyonder with erasing her.
Therefore, Pre-Retcon's 1985 feat was never retconned completely,
and so Post-Retcon Beyonder did in fact erase the concept of Death across the Universe.
So where does this lead us?
You make the call, I have my own opinion.
Originally posted by Mr Master😐
The Kubik statement [b]was canon when it was presented on panel,
but we must acknowledge that said statement was then retconned.Why?
Well because Kubik made that statement in FF Annual #26,
but in FF Annual #27, full potential Owen Reece states that ONLY he surpasses Beyonder's power.
[/B]
That's not a retcon.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurderOnce again: nothing pertaining to Kubik was 'retconned'. The events of F4 #319 (the issue in which Kubik warps a universe) were specifically mentioned in the F4 Annual #26 (the issue in which Kubik wanks a Celestial.)
I, too, am in the camp of those that believe Kubiks statement was done as a retcon; otherwise Kubik making that statement and being scared of the non-named Celestials' pending judgement makes absolutely no sense at all...Kubik doesnt make many appearances, but I am willing to bet money that we never see him warping entire universes ever again...
And asumming he hasnt been retconned (and I am convinced that he was) that makes the Celestials stupidly powerful (supremely overpowered that is); hell, why send Galactus and the abstracts against Thanos in the Infinity Gauntlet series!? Just send the 4th Celestial host + Exitar and you'd have enough firepower to beat Thanos (with the Gauntlet), Eternity, and Bloody atleast 2 of the Tribunals faces...
Galan, you claim that Kubik wasnt retconned...I disagree...I believe there is enough circumstancial evidence present to support Kubik being retconned vs evidence stating that he's still capable of warping an entire resisting universe with ease...
And the circumstancial evidence is:
1) A lone Celestial doesnt possess the power to warp entire universes.
2) Kubik flatly saying he was several orders of magnitude beneath a lone Celestial.
3) Kubik being afraid of the judgement of a lone Celestial.This is, IMHO, one of the clearest cases of a retcon that I have ever seen...
And if Kubik isnt retconned, then 1-3 are false (and I am 100% certain that #1 is true); as for 2 and 3, given the situation, I can find no logical explanantion for Kubik lying and pretending he was scared if he really wasnt...
-Kubik, to the Beyonder-
"[The Celestials] could have easily crushed you... I once did*"
And as you can see, the source for that statement is F4 #319. So obviously Kubik is referring to his universe-warping feat/battle, thus retaining that feat's canonicity by proxy.
Originally posted by King KandyWhat does this have to do with any of the question(s) I asked? 😕
If we're to believe Kubik is far above the Celestials, that implies that they are on about equal footing with most abstracts... that would completely contradict all statements given that the abstracts only pretended to be weaker than Beyonder. Essentially a de-retcon.
Well can we atleast agree that we have some incredibly inconsistent writing going on then?
Kubik making that statement about his vast inferiority to the Celestials, then simutaneously having his universe warping feat stand; despite the fact that a lone member of the Celestial race doesnt have anywhere near "several orders of magnitude" more power than what is needed to warp a universe...contradicts itself many times over.
Of course this shouldnt be surprising as Marvel is famous for its glaring inconsistencies in writing...
Bottomline for me is that either Kubik is retconned; which makes the cosmic hierarchy atleast somewhat logical...
Or a lone member of the Celestial race (and isnt it crazy stupid that there is an entire RACE of beings this powerful!?) has the power to effortlessly warp atleast 100 resisting universes simutaneously (several orders of magnitude more than what Kubik can do, so ATLEAST 100...bare minimum)...
If the Celestials are that badass, then the whole cosmic hierarchy falls apart as a lone member of the Celestials should be able to (IMHO) be able to beat the wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet; and if not...assumming that the Celestials are that powerful...surely an entire Celestial Host would trump the Infinity Gauntlet many times over.
So either we accept that:
1) Kubiks universe warping feat was meant to be retconned...
2) A lone Celestial is vastly more powerful than any abstract save perhaps the Tribunal...
3) A cube being, which ranks beneath an abstract in the cosmic hierarchy, is simutaneously capable of warping a universe and yet is several orders of magnitude beneath a Celestial; in this case ALL the abstracts possess the power to warp atleast 100 resisting universes with ease (you see how ridiculous this is!?); of course this cant be true as Thanos owned Eternity's "cosmic brigade" when he had the IG.
No matter how its spun, you have bad...inconsistent...writing no matter what.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurderThis much I can certainly agree on.
Well can we atleast agree that we have some incredibly inconsistent writing going on then?
Originally posted by D_Dude1210The same could be said about Alfred. 😉
Just because a Celestial was never shown to warp a universe, doesn't mean they can't.The highest expression of power I've seen a Celestial do was when a (until that point) "nameless" Celestial named Scathan took down Protege.
That was Scathan. He certainly shouldn't be your bearing for 'general' Celestial power.
Originally posted by Galan007
This much I can certainly agree on.The same could be said about Alfred. 😉
That was Scathan. He certainly shouldn't be your bearing for 'general' Celestial power.
True that. "Proving a negative" thingie. Haha. My point was that they've always been considered a "universal" power in the cosmic hierarchy of marvel. They don't manipulate reality on a universal scale the same way that Eternity was never shown (at least to my memory) to manipulate reality on a universal scale. Does that put Kubik above Eternity? Don't think so. 😄
Also, Scathan was only thought of as being at the power levels he was at due to the Protege feat. Exitar was always shown as a Celestial well beyond the average Celestial. If Scathan is what a high-tier Celestial is capable of, then I have to think
Of course, this is ABC logic, so I'll have to concede that there is too little viable Celestial feats to consider them beyond a Cosmic Cube (even tho, Kubik himself has admitted his inferiority to Celestials).
And I also have to say that only a single feat has shown Kubik to be at a level beyond Celestials and anything to do with the Beyonder has been ubergayretconned since then.
who says celestials cant warp univese??
and the ig would still stomp someone who is multiple levels above kubik
theres levels such as
universal
multiversal
omniverse
kubic is 1.
celestials should be two
the ig is three.
and the hotu somps all of them.
compare to multiversal beings kubiks feat is nothing
compared to omniversal beings, multiversal beings are nothing
Originally posted by Galan007What I learned is a writer's intentions pertaining to actual comparisons between two characters gets trumped because one has better feats.
😂Oh and remember to keep in mind that unproven statements pertaining to a character's supposed power = on panel feats.
That's something I've learned from this thread. 👆
Originally posted by quanchi112For some reason I had the urge to look at your post, despite you being on ignore... And I'm very glad I did. Why? Because for once we actually agree!
What I learned is a writer's intentions pertaining to actual comparisons between two characters gets trumped because one has better feats.
🙂 👆
Now back to perma-ignore, you go. 😉
Originally posted by Galan007Sure ya did galan. The funny thing is you pmed me before about my opinion regarding blood and thunder now you want to act like a baby and put me on ignore. Fine and dandy but you read my posts and this proves it.
For some reason I had the urge to look at your post, despite you being on ignore... And I'm very glad I did. Why? Because for once we actually agree!🙂 👆
Now back to perma-ignore, you go. 😉
I was also being sarcastic galan but you won't read this as I am back on ignore.
