Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace only won becuase he found Sidious' Shatterpoint (unless thats considered non-canon) and becuase he manipulated the environment, neither of which he can do here. Up until that point the novel makes it quite clear that they're equals.
This is true. Mace himself stated the full power of Vaapad could only end the duel in a stalemate. The shatterpoint led to the "check". Anakin came in and took away the "mate".
'There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.'
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
its a force power.its super natural
Why can't he manipulate the environment here? Don't see where you come up with this. And BW never commented on whether Shatterpoint was considered a usable talent or not. It seems to me that Shatterpoint is closer to a usable skill, then something along the lines of force tk, lightening, illusions, etc... of which (the latter) are banned.
Originally posted by Nephthys
'There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.'
I understant this part. I guess it comes down to whether BW interprets SP as a usable skill or not in regards to this fight.
Originally posted by Letum Lettow
It wasn't the force attacks I was afraid of, but the potential damage from channelling Sidious energy into Vaapad, if he gets it going in time. DE Sidious is dangerously dark and evil, to the point of killing himself with his own power.
Not sure what point you're making here. Sidious is in a faster, stronger, and younger body than ROTS. He also has an additional 30 years of studying the Darkside by DE. Him and Mace were more or less equal in the saber department in ROTS, and Sidious should logically be superior by DE.
But here is the question. Vaapad allowed Mace to simply reach ROTS Sidious levels not surpass it despite the fact that he had his own darkness plus Sidious's. So did Mace reach Vaapad's limit, as in he can't channel any more darkness, in his fight with Sidious or does it simply allow Mace to equal his opponent?
Originally posted by ares834I guess you could say that Vaapad reached the limit of dark energy it could harness in that particular battle (hence the 'superconducting loop' which was formed.) However, don't let that confuse you into thinking that Vaapad has some sort of generalized 'cap' -- it doesn't (or at least such has never been stated.) Against an opponent as 'dark' as Sidious, it evidently fed off of dark energies until things balanced out. That's why this battle would likely result in a stalemate. Yes, Sidious was far more powerful by the time of DE, but he achieved said power by sinking further into the dark side. Ergo, Vaapad will have this additional dark energy feeding it. Balance.
But here is the question. Vaapad allowed Mace to simply reach ROTS Sidious levels not surpass it despite the fact that he had his own darkness plus Sidious's. So did Mace reach Vaapad's limit, as in he can't channel any more darkness, in his fight with Sidious or does it simply allow Mace to equal his opponent?
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractAgainst an opponent of the light, Mace can channel his own darkness and utilize it against them. Against a practitioner of the dark side, he can also channel their darkness.
I doubt that Vapaad allows Mace to automatically equal any opponent. That would just be ghey
ie. Vaapad gives Mace a HUGE advantage in ANY battle. Not saying it's insurmountable, but it IS exceedingly difficult to get around.
More powerful with the force? Yes. More skilled with a lightsaber? Nah.
Think about it, Sidious likely didn't have a need to so much as pick up a lightsaber from the events of RotS, through his 'death' in RotJ. That right there accounts for a whole lot of years to be out of practice. Furthermore, the events of DE occur several years after RotJ. So yeah...
His skill with a saber is debatable. There just aren't enough sources between RotS and DE that depict in wielding one. At the very least though, we can say he didn't get any worse. If he's still the exact same, then Mace will once again beat him.
Of course if this is Sidious in a sparkly new clone body, then its youth will give him more of an edge.
Originally posted by Lord LucienYeah, since there's really no way to be sure whether his technical skills stayed the same or decreased over the years, I guess it's only fair to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that they stayed the same.
His skill with a saber is debatable. There just aren't enough sources between RotS and DE that depict in wielding one. At the very least though, we can say he didn't get any worse. If he's still the exact same, then Mace will once again beat him.Of course if this is Sidious in a sparkly new clone body, then its youth will give him more of an edge.
DE Sidious was more in tune with the dark side then he had ever been before. That increased darkness would only serve to empower Vaapad even more then in their last duel. So imo, the increased Vaapad-potency would essentially negate the advantages Sidious gains with a younger clone body, and we'd get a repeat of their battle in RotS.