Gideon can probably get the proper source and passage if he's at the appropriate parent's house, but the [Ultimate Visual Guide?] notes that Palpatine cut down Kolar and Tiin "before [Mace] knew what happened." It's arguable that unless he immediately begins a rapid descent into the depths of Vaapad, Palpatine circa ROTS could outspeed and kill him instantly.
A generation later, the Emperor's only going to be faster.
In rots wasn't sidious out of practice by 15 years or so? DE I assumed he had used his saber more so then he did rots.
Also in the op it states sidious and mace can use the force to buff themselves physically, ie speed, strength, reflexes etc. But nothing like lightening, illusiobs, or exotic powers ie shatterpoint.
If mace is allowed shatterpoint since I banned exotic force powers, I would allowed sidious force tk or lightening.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yeah, I was thinking the most significant upgrade in his dueling skill would be increased speed/agility/etc. due to having a younger body. But his technique(s) likely stayed the same... Or may have even decreased, due to being out of practice for so many years (as you said.)
Not only does he have the increased speed, strength, and agility that his younger body offers him, he also has the increases that his immense increases in Force ability offer him. He also directly claimed that he had become more power in his time since dying.
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractOffensive force powers aren't applicable in this match, though. It's purely a duel.
Not only does he have the increased speed, strength, and agility that his younger body offers him, he also has the increases that his immense increases in Force ability offer him. He also directly claimed that he had become more power in his time since dying.
If it were an 'all out' type of thing, then Sidious would stomp.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, since there's really no way to be sure whether his technical skills stayed the same or decreased over the years, I guess it's only fair to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that they stayed the same.
If you don't practice something, your skills in it generally diminish.
About a year or two ago, I used to believe that Mace would defeat any darksider in a duel. Examining that opinion, I conclude that it is retarded. Didn't Mace get his ass kicked by Kar Vastor, anyways? The movie shows us that Sidious was able to take on Fisto and Windu simultaneously in combat and force Windu back; he clearly had the upper hand, if only barely. I'm with Faunus. A reasonably powerful and skilled Force user definitely stands a chance of killing Windu, especially early in the fight.
If Sidious can "blitz" Windu, he'll win this without much of an issue. If he doesn't, then Windu will very likely win.
E
Gideon can probably get the proper source and passage if he's at the appropriate parent's house, but the [Ultimate Visual Guide?] notes that Palpatine cut down Kolar and Tiin "before [Mace] knew what happened." It's arguable that unless he immediately begins a rapid descent into the depths of Vaapad, Palpatine circa ROTS could outspeed and kill him instantly.A generation later, the Emperor's only going to be faster.
"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." -- the Complete Visual Dictionary, pg. 163.
Galan007
Offensive force powers aren't applicable in this match, though. It's purely a duel.If it were an 'all out' type of thing, then Sidious would stomp.
no silly
Per Path of Destruction, it is ultimately all about an opponent's greater strength in the Force. A duelist [generally] possesses greater speed, agility, and precognition if he is more powerful in the Force. What Glentract is arguing is that Palpatine will already be physically faster than what he was when Mace fought him in Revenge of the Sith due to his younger body; but, in addition, he will also possess even greater ability with the Force with which to augment his physical characteristics.
Originally posted by Gideon
no sillyPer Path of Destruction, it is ultimately all about an opponent's greater strength in the Force. A duelist [generally] possesses greater speed, agility, and precognition if he is more powerful in the Force. What Glentract is arguing is that Palpatine will already be physically faster than what he was when Mace fought him in Revenge of the Sith due to his younger body; but, in addition, he will also possess even greater ability with the Force with which to augment his physical characteristics.
Force power/control isn't the only factor. Kas'im stated that a person skilled enough with a lightsaber could defeat someone more powerful in the Force.
Originally posted by GideonIn the novelization, Mace (pre-Vaapad immersion) was defending himself from Sidious when Kit was still alive. So he obviously knew something was happening. 😛
"Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade." -- the Complete Visual Dictionary, pg. 163.
Originally posted by GideonIt's because of that increased darkness that I think Vaapad could very likely 'pick up the slack' (so to speak) and equal things out.
no sillyPer Path of Destruction, it is ultimately all about an opponent's greater strength in the Force. A duelist [generally] possesses greater speed, agility, and precognition if he is more powerful in the Force. What Glentract is arguing is that Palpatine will already be physically faster than what he was when Mace fought him in Revenge of the Sith due to his younger body; but, in addition, he will also possess even greater ability with the Force with which to augment his physical characteristics.
@Gideon:
Funny, you want me to apologize to you, but if I'm on ignore, then how are you supposed to read it?
Originally posted by Nephthys
'Could' being the key word. And I get the sense that he was more talking about cases like when he pulled out his duel style and started kicking ass. Bane didn't know how to counter it and got pwned; a case technical skill trumping power.
Right. That's what Kas'im said.
Galan
In the novelization, Mace (pre-Vaapad immersion) was defending himself from Sidious when Kit was still alive. So he obviously knew something was happening.
I have no doubt. But a seasoned and capable warrior such as Mace was probably reacting on pure reflex there, likely not mentally processing that the feeble old man he intended to arrest is kicking the ass of his team of "celebrated swordsmen."
The fact remains, though, Windu was pushed back and on the defensive, despite Fisto's brief assistance. If he was equal to Palpatine at that moment, then that would have been enough to defeat the Sith.
Originally posted by GideonI didn't say that Mace was necessarily equal to Sidious at the very beginning. I just mentioned that despite Mace not yet actively employing Vaapad, he was still able to defend against Sidious' attacks.
I have no doubt. But a seasoned and capable warrior such as Mace was probably reacting on pure reflex there, likely not mentally processing that the feeble old man he intended to arrest is kicking the ass of his team of "celebrated swordsmen."The fact remains, though, Windu was pushed back and on the defensive, despite Fisto's brief assistance. If he was equal to Palpatine at that moment, then that would have been enough to defeat the Sith.
I imagine vaapad has a limit, correlated with the user of it, of how much dark side energy it can conduct, channel. If Sidious is drowned in dark side energy to the point, where Vaapad channeling the maximum ammount that it can from both mace and sidious, is still less then Sidious ammount, I imagine Mace would be killed.
What I'm trying to say is, was Sidious so powerful and saturated in the dark side that he would be able to empower himself with it, more so then mace would be able to empower himself with his darkside+vaapad channeling a fraction of sidious power?
I read a quote some one stated, that it was by lumiya, that she and vader both had a limit of how much of the dark side they could utilize/channel? But that sidious had no limit? Thus theoritically
Sidious empowered by unlimited dark side energy >Mace empowered by his internal energy/darkness + fraction of sidious dark side energy due to vaapad
????
Originally posted by Board Walker
I imagine vaapad has a limit, correlated with the user of it, of how much dark side energy it can conduct, channel. If Sidious is drowned in dark side energy to the point, where Vaapad channeling the maximum ammount that it can from both mace and sidious, is still less then Sidious ammount, I imagine Mace would be killed.What I'm trying to say is, was Sidious so powerful and saturated in the dark side that he would be able to empower himself with it, more so then mace would be able to empower himself with his darkside+vaapad channeling a fraction of sidious power?
I read a quote some one stated, that it was by lumiya, that she and vader both had a limit of how much of the dark side they could utilize/channel? But that sidious had no limit? Thus theoritically
Sidious empowered by unlimited dark side energy >Mace empowered by his internal energy/darkness + fraction of sidious dark side energy due to vaapad
????
What? Since when does Sidious have "unlimited dark side energy"?