facepalm
*siiiiiiiiiigh*
I tried..... I tried so utterly hard to avoid making a scene in this thread.... but this... NONSENSE. low balling. of Dragon Ball Z and DB related characters... HAS TO STOP. 😐
That's all there is to it...
You see there's several issues that always begin to derail or invalidate the credability of DBZ vs. threads.... and it's always the same ones.
FIRST OFF: We have the fact that DB characters were doing ridiculous feats all the way back to dragonball, and these feats were only all the more ridiculously compounded not even halfway into the first saga of the series, and they're not "high-end" by any means when it comes to the DB-verse... they're the norm on a bad day.
We've got Goku running around as a child with superhuman speed comparable to a low level quicksilver.
At 11 he single handedly takes out the entire Red Ribbon Army by himself, an army using advanced robotics technology and he does so with ease, as if it was a game to him.
He's outpacing lightning, and dodging bullets. We have characters catching machine gun fire.
Roshi pulverizing a moon into debris with a single blast.
Toa's strength showcased as he picks up and throws massive tree trunks out across the horizon which he then rides for miles.
Goku stopping and literally judo tossing a piccolo the size of Ultraman after he was already a little worn out.
Goku and Piccolo causing a blast on a massive island that dwarfed a major city.
Fastforward to Z and we had Radditz a confirmed planetary threat, picking bullets out of the air with his hand and shooting them back with a flick of his finger, dodging an attack that supposedly went at light speed.. which Piccolo confirmed later when he casually destroyed a moon again without even a power-up.
Anime included, Piccolo lifted a great pyramid with his mind during meditation and he wasn't even trying to.
Already we begin to see a VERY solid base for someone who would be a threat to Thor in a physical matchup. There's no arguing around that fact and the only way anyone can ignore it is by guaging Thor purely on his higher and highest showings while also ignoring the scope of his entire career. There's little to no reason at all that someone of Raddit'z calibur couldn't put up a solid fight with Thor.
SECOND ISSUE: Power Levels... The thing about all the feats presented before is that they became synominous with a power level that each character had while performing them. Jake, you asked earlier if someone with a PL of 12000 would be twice as strong, durable, fast, etc as someone with a PL of 6000 and the answer is a simple, straight forward, YES. As we would later learn, higher power levels were directly indicative of higher levels of durability, strength, speed, and reflexes and Goku proved that this concept of power scaling was geometric the moment he began to use his Kaio-ken technique. In all honesty, it's actually harder to prove that someone of 6000 PL is ONLY half as weak as someone of 12000 as showcased by the utter outclassings displayed with Vegeta against opponents whom he only had a few thousand PL points above in the Frieza saga and still completely owned them without so much as getting touched (Kui, Zarbon, Dadoria) or remotely challenged.
Which brings us to ISSUE THREE:
Toriyama had made his characters planetary threats early on in the series and established a basis of "power levels" in which no character with a weaker PL could ever overcome someone who was their superior. The only way to beat these already uber characters was to become even more uber than they were. Of course when your characters are already variable "supermen" when the series starts off it leaves a TON of room for PLOT HOLES....
Lets review; Frieza in his first form casually destroyed planet Vegeta, there was no real need for him to even power up which, was a significant increase (as displayed from Piccolos astonishment of his powering up before his fight with Vegeta went underway). Then, as ODG described earlier, there was a MASSIVE difference between his 2nd form and first, which was completely outclassed by his third form, and then again by his 4th and final form. The kicker? His second form was over 1 million and his fourth form had varying levels of 1 to 100%. A claim which had credability given that 1) Frieza had instruments that could be used to guage his full power and 2) that he had to accurately assess his own power to keep pace with Goku's Kaio-ken.
So what the story basically leaves us with? That frieza who wasn't even approaching 1/4 of 1% of his full power could casually flatline an entire planetary body.... That's.... well it's staggering to think about really.... which leaves us with the biggest issue concerning DBZ characters and these .... "debates".
WHATS THE FINAL ISSUE?:
Low balling.... period. We have a cold hard numbered system in which to rely on that dictates what these characters "can" do and what they "should" be able to do.... The evidence lies in performance vs. other characters. In those "other characters" and their performance against another character, and so on and so fourth. The bottem line is that DBZ is a series which sets itself up to be viewed through a 1-2-3 system which isn't the same as ABC logic which some of you are trying to pass off. ABC logic is a process that inlcudes wins and losses but doesn't account for the fact that some people with can beat others according to varying power sets... DBZ doesn't have varying power sets that take precedence over power levels and it's as simple as that.
NOW, you CAN argue by reading too much into plotholes, and you're certainly free use them in an attempt to make DBZ characters look weaker than they are as if it's a legitimate meathod of argumentation... but I'll point out that such a meathod of debate is concurrent with using low showings, and as credible as the argument used against Thor's strength/power output due to his lack of collateral damage caused his fight with Bor. The difference between Thor and DBZ characters? They're "low showings" in combat are only against other uber DBZ characters, Thor? The guys been bewildered by peak humans... Low balling isn't a rout ANY comic fan wants to start trying in regards to DBZ characters. I believe that Toriyama made statements like Buu being a universal level threat and King Kold being a solar system level threat in order to give us an idea of their destructive capabilities without hurting the plot he was trying to throw together, you can call it hyperbole, but there's more evidence to support these statements than the opposite.... unless of course you ignore the system.
As for this fight? It all comes down to tactics. Thor wins IF he chooses to energy drain and he effectively shields himself or evades attacks while doing so. Vegeta wins if he blitzes and there's truly no reason to think that he can't tag thor with an energy blast in combat... like.. at all.
Now I'm willing to give Thor the benefit of the doubt because Mjolnir will probably have Thor picking up on Vegeta's energy levels and Vegeta can be goaded into challenging himself against Thor's best. That and energy manipulation are the only reason's Thor has a shot of winning this fight, and why SHOULD be able to secure a win. But lets get one thing straight...he's NOT beating Vegeta in a straight, physical contest, Godblast, and lightning included... Any arguments to the contrary are farcicle at best, and YES that IS inclusive of black hair Vegeta from as early as the Frieza saga... Saiyan Saga Vegeta should give him a run for his money nevermind any other incarnation, as Carver's been trying to point out, Nappa casually destroyed a city with a blast radious larger and faster than a Nuke just with a raise of his hand, and no previous attempt to power up..... That's not the kind of damage we see guys like Thor tanking on a daily basis... far from it.
And finally, gotta speak my peace on those supposed speed feats of Thors... One scan says Thor moves too fast for the eye to follow, not Heimdalls eye.. The second scan tells us that jean "instantaneously" blasts her energy at Thor.... it doesn't say that the effect is instantaneous. One can "instantaneously" pull a trigger in one moment, it doesn't mean that the bullet reaches it's desired targed instantly. There's a difference. And the art being represenative of a fireball doesn't lend credence that it was a ftl reflex feat..sorry.