Atheism

Started by Digi144 pages

Found this today and wanted to reprint it here:

Original link: http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/

It's nothing super original, but I think it's concisely and eloquently stated.

...

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."
Richard Dawkins

There is a reason that science and religion frequently butt heads, and it deals with the nature of understanding. From a sociological and historical standpoint, the primary function of a religion is to provide cultural cohesion, so some wonder why it would ever “need” to conflict with science. The issue only arises because religion achieves that cohesion through empirical claims (by this I mean claims about the nature of the world). Whether those claims are “a god created the world” or “the Earth is the center of the universe,” it doesn’t really matter, it’s all in a realm that it empirically testable. Science, while constructed to deal with a different end of the human experience, does overlap in this empirical realm, and so there arises a conflict.

While individuals can exhibit personal and cultural bias, science, as an institution, produces knowledge that is independent of any particular culture, and so potentially places itself at odds with anything that relies on empirical claims. If your worldview and personal values are tied to, say, the Sun being made mostly of iron, you’re not going to take kindly to evidence to the contrary.

This is why religion is at its core incompatible with the continued expanse of human knowledge (science). Understanding new things about the world, in the lens of religious thinking, is not required and is almost always limited in some way. Even the most progressive or benign religions ultimately place some limitation on “what we can know.” They have to, because every religion still has physical or metaphysical claims about existence. If they didn’t, they’d just be philosophies.

This is what Professor Dawkins is addressing, that what actually unifies all religion is that they all share some point where the furthering of understanding must end. And, for him (and many of us), this is unacceptable.

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Back to me:

I think the most reasonable claims to the contrary will revolve around those who claim that there isn't a quarrel between the two realms. An individual might be able to rationalize a religious worldview within a scientific framework, but that's what it is: a rationalization. It's having to combine opposing, disparate elements into one. Fundamentally, and I think this is the point, the way the two institutions are set up makes conflict inevitable. Certainly, many religions can be compatible with some science. But anything that involves faith and the nature of universe - both of which are included in any major religion, almost by definition - possesses a fundamental disconnect with empirical study.

And those few that don't possess any conflicts with science (some sects of Taoism come to mind, for example) probably shouldn't be called religions. It's an approach to life, a philosophy as the blogger calls it, but makes no claims of an empirical nature (reincarnation would be one of these, for example).

Originally posted by Digi
This is what Professor Dawkins is addressing, that what actually unifies all religion is that they all share some point where the furthering of understanding must end. And, for him (and many of us), this is unacceptable.

This doesn't seem like a valid reason to reject religion at all. It sounds like you are rejecting it simply because you don't want it to be true. Not because you have reason to think it isn't. That's just how it came off to me.

Originally posted by TacDavey
This doesn't seem like a valid reason to reject religion at all. It sounds like you are rejecting it simply because you don't want it to be true. Not because you have reason to think it isn't. That's just how it came off to me.

Who is "you?" I didn't write that.

If you want the reasons why I'm an atheist, read the OP. I merely posted that blurb from the blog (also linked above) because I feel it makes a cogent point about the intrinsic conflict between science and religion. It's not a treatise on atheism, nor does it list reasons for being atheist, but is only a sociological observation. You're attacking it based on perceived faults in an argument it's not trying to make.

Science and religion conflict when one tries to do the other's job. And historically, organized religion has been far more the perp with this, largely for political/economic gain (worldly power: go figure). Often, many followers of an organized religion also tend to abandon common sense, which is the foundation of the scientific method.

On the other hand, I wouldn't say efforts to reconcile the two worldviews are necessarily rationalizations (though surely some are). That's...dismissive, IMO, since to call something a rationalization implies that the "rational" individual truly knows what's going on.

Originally posted by Digi
Found this today and wanted to reprint it here:

Original link: http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/

It's nothing super original, but I think it's concisely and eloquently stated.

...

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."
Richard Dawkins

There is a reason that science and religion frequently butt heads, and it deals with the nature of understanding. From a sociological and historical standpoint, the primary function of a religion is to provide cultural cohesion, so some wonder why it would ever “need” to conflict with science. The issue only arises because religion achieves that cohesion through empirical claims (by this I mean claims about the nature of the world). Whether those claims are “a god created the world” or “the Earth is the center of the universe,” it doesn’t really matter, it’s all in a realm that it empirically testable. Science, while constructed to deal with a different end of the human experience, does overlap in this empirical realm, and so there arises a conflict.

While individuals can exhibit personal and cultural bias, science, as an institution, produces knowledge that is independent of any particular culture, and so potentially places itself at odds with anything that relies on empirical claims. If your worldview and personal values are tied to, say, the Sun being made mostly of iron, you’re not going to take kindly to evidence to the contrary.

This is why religion is at its core incompatible with the continued expanse of human knowledge (science). Understanding new things about the world, in the lens of religious thinking, is not required and is almost always limited in some way. Even the most progressive or benign religions ultimately place some limitation on “what we can know.” They have to, because every religion still has physical or metaphysical claims about existence. If they didn’t, they’d just be philosophies.

This is what Professor Dawkins is addressing, that what actually unifies all religion is that they all share some point where the furthering of understanding must end. And, for him (and many of us), this is unacceptable.

...

Back to me:

I think the most reasonable claims to the contrary will revolve around those who claim that there isn't a quarrel between the two realms. An individual might be able to rationalize a religious worldview within a scientific framework, but that's what it is: a rationalization. It's having to combine opposing, disparate elements into one. Fundamentally, and I think this is the point, the way the two institutions are set up makes conflict inevitable. Certainly, many religions can be compatible with some science. But anything that involves faith and the nature of universe - both of which are included in any major religion, almost by definition - possesses a fundamental disconnect with empirical study.

And those few that don't possess any conflicts with science (some sects of Taoism come to mind, for example) probably shouldn't be called religions. It's an approach to life, a philosophy as the blogger calls it, but makes no claims of an empirical nature (reincarnation would be one of these, for example).

Dunno man, I explained in a post to you how god was compatible to science, not sure if you deliberatly ignored it or missed it. Also athiesm is the assumption just because the universe was created by the big bang this means god didn't cause it. Athiests believe the idea that god could have caused it is inherently illogical and implausible, this is also a rationlization.

Just sounds like hypocrisy again.

Originally posted by Digi
Who is "you?" I didn't write that.

If you want the reasons why I'm an atheist, read the OP. I merely posted that blurb from the blog (also linked above) because I feel it makes a cogent point about the intrinsic conflict between science and religion. It's not a treatise on atheism, nor does it list reasons for being atheist, but is only a sociological observation. You're attacking it based on perceived faults in an argument it's not trying to make.

My mistake. I assumed the point I quoted was your thoughts on the matter. Where atheism is favored because it allows for the possibility of knowing more than the alternative. This is not a reasonable line of thinking IMO.

Originally posted by Deadline
Dunno man, I explained in a post to you how god was compatible to science, not sure if you deliberatly ignored it or missed it. Also athiesm is the assumption just because the universe was created by the big bang this means god didn't cause it. Athiests believe the idea that god could have caused it is inherently illogical and implausible, this is also a rationlization.

Just sounds like hypocrisy again.

I also see no reason to assume that God is erased from the equation because of the Big Bang. Why is this seen as evidence that God does not exist?

Originally posted by Deadline
Dunno man, I explained in a post to you how god was compatible to science, not sure if you deliberatly ignored it or missed it. Also athiesm is the assumption just because the universe was created by the big bang this means god didn't cause it. Athiests believe the idea that god could have caused it is inherently illogical and implausible, this is also a rationlization.

Just sounds like hypocrisy again.

You're very quick to jump to nasty words like hypocrisy.

Anyway, I'm aware of arguments you've made in the past. But just because I've read them doesn't mean I'm going to agree with them.

Science is only compatible with very specific ideas of God, ideas that almost always aren't aligned with those of any major religions. If there were really no conflict, as you say, we wouldn't see a pronounced ideological war being waged between the two "camps." I dislike the war, as I call it, but that fact doesn't wish it out of existence.

As is usually the case in religious discussions with me, I'm far less concerned with academic loopholes that we might search for to reconcile the two, and more concerned with the affects we see in the world as a result of these forces.

Originally posted by TacDavey
My mistake. I assumed the point I quoted was your thoughts on the matter. Where atheism is favored because it allows for the possibility of knowing more than the alternative. This is not a reasonable line of thinking IMO.

I was quite clear that I was posting from another site. I'm surprised you missed it.

srug

That said, I'm in rough agreement with the idea he presents. You were just refuting a point that he wasn't making. The post didn't outline a justification for atheism, but it provided the sociological backdrop for the conflict between non-religiosity and atheism.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I also see no reason to assume that God is erased from the equation because of the Big Bang. Why is this seen as evidence that God does not exist?

You're mixing terms and ignoring burden of proof. There's no such thing as "evidence that God doesn't exist."

http://pewforum.org/other-beliefs-and-practices/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey.aspx

Some evidence that atheists/agnostics (and Jews) are more versed in religion as a whole than other religious demographics.

There's lots of other findings in the survey from the link, but that's the one most relevant to this thread.

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Also of note for stat junkies, and less controversial in topic, is this link:
http://religions.pewforum.org/

It's specifically for the U.S. but is a nice way to break down adherents by religion, region, as well as other interesting factors. We talk a lot about world adherents on this forum, but I don't see much on specific countries (U.S. being most heavily represented by a lot here on KMC). The methodology and total numbers make it rather thorough, so the totals seem fairly reliable.

Of note for this thread: 16.1% "Unaffiliated" but of those, only 1.6% of the country is atheist, which is significantly below the world average (though the "unaffiliated" totals are similar to world norms). Men are also significantly more likely to be unaffiliated. It think it was something like 20% compared to 13% for women.

Originally posted by Digi
I was quite clear that I was posting from another site. I'm surprised you missed it.

I know. But I assumed you agreed with the section you posted.

Originally posted by Digi
You're mixing terms and ignoring burden of proof. There's no such thing as "evidence that God doesn't exist."

I was talking about those who see the Big Bang as evidence against God's existence.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I know. But I assumed you agreed with the section you posted.

I do, but my other points stand. It's not acting as a defense of atheism, it's observing a sociological conflict and identifying its root. Religious institutions, on the whole, limit our understanding of the universe a lot more so than if we were in a secular, scientifically-driven society, because the idea of "God does it" ingrains more complacency toward ultimate questions.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I was talking about those who see the Big Bang as evidence against God's existence.

Anyone who thinks that is stupid. As I said, there's no such thing as evidence against God's existence. It can't logically exist. There's lack of evidence for his existence, but that's another matter entirely.

Originally posted by Digi
I do, but my other points stand. It's not acting as a defense of atheism, it's observing a sociological conflict and identifying its root. Religious institutions, on the whole, limit our understanding of the universe a lot more so than if we were in a secular, scientifically-driven society, because the idea of "God does it" ingrains more complacency toward ultimate questions.

From who? Certainly not the experts in the field. If it ingrains more complacency in anyone it's the average person, not the scientists or cosmologists.

Originally posted by Digi
Anyone who thinks that is stupid. As I said, there's no such thing as evidence against God's existence. It can't logically exist. There's lack of evidence for his existence, but that's another matter entirely.

I agree.

Originally posted by TacDavey
From who? Certainly not the experts in the field. If it ingrains more complacency in anyone it's the average person, not the scientists or cosmologists.

No good comes from the average person being complacent.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No good comes from the average person being complacent.

The average person isn't the one searching for the answers, though.

Originally posted by TacDavey
From who? Certainly not the experts in the field. If it ingrains more complacency in anyone it's the average person, not the scientists or cosmologists.

So you want the average person filled with complacency? I sure dont want the average person in a society thinking "god did it" with no thought further, that will just dumb society down as a whole.

Everyone should think, not just sceintists or cosmologists

Yeah, the data I posted earlier suggests that non-religious people know more about religion as a whole than do Christians. Take the same test, but for scientific knowledge. Any guesses as to who will come out wildly on top? Hopefully it's easy to surmise.

Then extrapolate that kind of knowledge across entire populations...how much more informed and rational could we be as a population? The thought is staggering.

But no, the Bible says the Ark and Eden and Jesus literally existed as stated through a frequently revised, edited, and translated book from 2000 years ago. Evidence be damned, let's go with that instead.

😐

Originally posted by TacDavey
The average person isn't the one searching for the answers, though.

Sure, but why should we encourage something like that?

Originally posted by cool_ghost
So you want the average person filled with complacency? I sure dont want the average person in a society thinking "god did it" with no thought further, that will just dumb society down as a whole.

Everyone should think, not just sceintists or cosmologists

I agree completely. My point was that even if religion breeds complacency, it affects the furthering of science very little.

Originally posted by Digi
Yeah, the data I posted earlier suggests that non-religious people know more about religion as a whole than do Christians. Take the same test, but for scientific knowledge. Any guesses as to who will come out wildly on top? Hopefully it's easy to surmise.

Then extrapolate that kind of knowledge across entire populations...how much more informed and rational could we be as a population? The thought is staggering.

Considering that the average person today, religious or not, knows little to nothing about cosmology or the origins of the universe, I would say religion affects this very little.

You almost suggest that getting rid of religion would suddenly make everyone more informed. But that is not the case at all. People aren't uninformed because they are Christian.

Originally posted by Digi
But no, the Bible says the Ark and Eden and Jesus literally existed as stated through a frequently revised, edited, and translated book from 2000 years ago. Evidence be damned, let's go with that instead.

😐

I should point out that it is basically accepted as historical fact that a man named Jesus existed, claimed to be the son of God, and was crucified and the tomb found empty. Obviously people disagree that He was who He said He was, but in all the debates and papers I've read from atheists and theists alike, no one has ever even attempted to challenge the fact that he existed.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sure, but why should we encourage something like that?

I never said we should.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I agree completely. My point was that even if religion breeds complacency, it affects the furthering of science very little.

what about when religion breeds hostility to science?

Originally posted by inimalist
what about when religion breeds hostility to science?

The concept of religion in general doesn't do that, though. Obviously you can say if someone formed a religion that said anything to do with science was evil and should be destroy, then that religion would affect the growth of science (If scientific minds actually believed in it/ were affected by it's followers). That isn't religion's fault, though.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I agree completely. My point was that even if religion breeds complacency, it affects the furthering of science very little.

Disagree entirely. It actively inhibits scientific inquiry, going so far as to create open animosity in people toward scientific facts that undermine their faith. You say religion doesn't do this in concept. Screw "in concept." That's just your interpretation. In reality, it happens all the time.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Considering that the average person today, religious or not, knows little to nothing about cosmology or the origins of the universe, I would say religion affects this very little.

Disagree again, and I'd use the earlier data I posted as evidence. Religious affiliations do affect exposure to certain types of knowledge. If you hang around people who only wear 1950's clothing, you'll have a much harder time understanding or explaining modern fashions.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You almost suggest that getting rid of religion would suddenly make everyone more informed. But that is not the case at all. People aren't uninformed because they are Christian.

I'm not almost suggesting anything. I am saying it outright. Some people are just stupid, I agree there. But yes, remove organized religion and you'd have a more scientifically literate populace.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I should point out that it is basically accepted as historical fact that a man named Jesus existed, claimed to be the son of God, and was crucified and the tomb found empty. Obviously people disagree that He was who He said He was, but in all the debates and papers I've read from atheists and theists alike, no one has ever even attempted to challenge the fact that he existed.

Straw man. I'm not refuting his existence. Maybe I should've just left it at Eden and the Ark to make my point. This is missing my point entirely. An unreliable book says it, so we accept that over facts. That is, undeniably, how numerous Christians approach reality.