Atheism

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
An all knowing god would never get mad, because someone gets mad when things go wrong. Things go wrong when you can't predict the outcome, and if you are an all knowing god then you always know the outcome.

And I think God can be an all-knowing God but still not know the outcome of our choices. How?

He can know all possible outcomes but not know which path we take through all of those possiblities.

Kind of like knowing exactly what cards are in a deck of cards: They are randomly shuffled and a card is pulled off of the top. God does not know which card will be pulled off and in which sequence until the stack is complete. However, he knows all possibly paths and combinations that could occur (it's a factorial). As we live out our lives, we become more and more predictable upon which path we will take (but God already knows the vast majority of the cards and in which sequence they will be chosen because of his prior knowledge and how he designed us). But there are still elements of what we do that he will not know for sure that we will choose. So this is how God can be omniscient without being omniscient at the same time. It is not a truly binary system, to begin with. My example could be expanded or compounded an infinite amount of times over making it far more complicated. This is closer to where I think a universe Creator would be.

I am preserving the concept of partial free-will. teehee

Originally posted by dadudemon
What went wrong would be me, not God.

And I think God can be an all-knowing God but still not know the outcome of our choices. How?

He can know all possible outcomes but not know which path we take through all of those possiblities.

Kind of like knowing exactly what cards are in a deck of cards: They are randomly shuffled and a card is pulled off of the top. God does not know which card will be pulled off and in which sequence until the stack is complete. However, he knows all possibly paths and combinations that could occur (it's a factorial). As we live out our lives, we become more and more predictable upon which path we will take (but God already knows the vast majority of the cards and in which sequence they will be chosen because of his prior knowledge and how he designed us). But there are still elements of what we do that he will not know for sure that we will choose. So this is how God can be omniscient without being omniscient at the same time. It is not a truly binary system, to begin with. My example could be expanded or compounded an infinite amount of times over making it far more complicated. This is closer to where I think a universe Creator would be.

I am preserving the concept of partial free-will. teehee

I guess it all depends of what "all knowing" means.

To me, the god you describe would be very knowledgeable, but not all knowing, in a literal sense. The problem is defiantly with us; the process of describing something that is not describable leads to a description that is useless. If a mathematician had a cleaver enough equation, he could tell you which card would come up next. This mathematician would not be all knowing, but he would have a means to know all.

As far as free will; I do not believe in free will. My will is limited, as is yours. I could want to walk on the sun, but I cannot.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
As far as free will; I do not believe in free will. My will is limited, as is yours. I could want to walk on the sun, but I cannot.

Yeah, I agree. That's why I called it "partial" free will.

But I take it a step further when I refer to it as limited because our biology limits us even with simple neurological measures (free will and free won't tests).

We have very little choices (compared those who believe in libertarian free will) in life. I would like to think we have free will...largely...with high level social choices. I am choosing to interact with you but I could be choosing to gripe about something here at work. 🙂

I tend to see "free will" as a kind of superposition of states: it exists, and it doesn't exist, simultaneously. It depends on one's perspective, not too unlike whether one sees a particle or a wave: it depends on how you observe the phenomenon. From my limited, individual POV, I have free will (a free will which chooses to recognize realistic limitations on what I can do--I choose not to engage in magical thinking, like flying w/o wings). Yet from "God's" POV -- or for that matter, from the "POV" of a godless, determinstic universe -- there is no free will.

OR

From the POV of the Infinite Whole (regardless of whether it is conscious or not), free will exists and does not exist, because all states are in and of unconditional infinity.

Something like that. I haven't really thought this through, especially since the problem, ultimately, seems irresolvable from my limited POV.

Originally posted by Mindship
I tend to see "free will" as a kind of superposition of states: it exists, and it doesn't exist, simultaneously. It depends on one's perspective, not too unlike whether one sees a particle or a wave: it depends on how you observe the phenomenon. From my limited, individual POV, I have free will (a free will which chooses to recognize realistic limitations on what I can do--I choose not to engage in magical thinking, like flying w/o wings). Yet from "God's" POV -- or for that matter, from the "POV" of a godless, determinstic universe -- there is no free will.

OR

From the POV of the Infinite Whole (regardless of whether it is conscious or not), free will exists and does not exist, because all states are in and of unconditional infinity.

Something like that. I haven't really thought this through, especially since the problem, ultimately, seems irresolvable from my limited POV.

So, free will is an eigen state? 😛

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, free will is an eigen state? 😛

Originally posted by Mindship
Great to have you back, my friend. 😎

Thanks. 😄

I didn't miss you. You were gone? 😛

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I didn't miss you. You were gone? 😛

Were you not the first person to send me a PM calibrating my return? 😛

That was you??? 😕

lol

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You can construct a few sorts of Clarke's god if you want.
Weak Clarke's god: An advanced creature is indistinguishable from a power[ful] magical creature (ie various classical gods). Its been claimed things like this have happened but I don't know if it's true.

The more I think about this, the more I am inclined to believe in this. In fact...I am willing and fully able to concede that the God I believe in (Mormonism) is exactly this type of Being.

Yes, crazy hair "ancient" aliens. What if the God I believe in is just a super advanced being? What if it is not the super-11-dimensional Creator I thought?

According to Joseph Smith, the God Mormons believe in once lived a mortal life and obtained ascension into God-Hood. Sounds a lot more like this type of God you describe.

I am fine with this. Some people (almost all Christians and Muslims) would be devastated if they found out that the God the believed in was actually an "Ancient Alien" that ascended through some sort of objective (maybe?) law or path of enlightenment. What if there really is an objective philosophical path of conscious ascension? What if most world religions were not that far off for exactly out consciousness does this?

I feel much more comfortable with that top of God than I do the intangible super-11-dimensional Creator. You know? But what IF that IS the ultimate "God"? Mormons don't rule out the possibility of God having a God.

Then that makes me think...is there an almost infinite number of conscious ascension? Areas that I cannot even comprehend at this point nor will be able to comprehend for billions of years?

It may seem weird, but I hope so.

Regardless, it would seem I'm much more atheistic than I want to admit. At last Mormons are. We don't believe in Ex Nihilo creation. We also believe that God created the solar system by organizing pre-existing matter (clearly indicating that he God we believe in was born in this universe...AFTER its creation). So, by this definition, Mormons technically are atheists...compared to their counterparts. We don't believe in some sort of super God but a tangible Universally bound God. He's limited. Maybe He is somewhere between Clarke's Strong and Weak god, but He's not this God that some people would want.

Maybe this whole time the Christian theologians have believed in the "super duper" God I referred to, earlier, but they actually attributed it all to our lesser "god"? Seems so.

Then the whole concept of God becomes nebulous and becomes a label rather than something official.

My hope is we can create god, in some form. Based on my perceptions of the universe, the probability of a being similar to a Weak or even strong Clarke God are high. This is my opinion.

What if the ascension to such a state of mind actually causes someone to become more like a sincere Uatu? Meaning, we ascend only to a state of observation and become meaningless to the actual interactions of the 11-dimensional plane? That's fine by me, as well.

lol @Uatu. Sign me up.

Originally posted by Digi
lol @Uatu. Sign me up.

It's not that bad of an existence, man. 😄

Until Rulk shows up.

Originally posted by Digi
Until Rulk shows up.

I'd sate the General with my psionic nutz. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
The more I think about this, the more I am inclined to believe in this. In fact...I am willing and fully able to concede that the God I believe in (Mormonism) is exactly this type of Being.

Yes, crazy hair "ancient" aliens. What if the God I believe in is just a super advanced being? What if it is not the super-11-dimensional Creator I thought?

According to Joseph Smith, the God Mormons believe in once lived a mortal life and obtained ascension into God-Hood. Sounds a lot more like this type of God you describe.

I am fine with this. Some people (almost all Christians and Muslims) would be devastated if they found out that the God the believed in was actually an "Ancient Alien" that ascended through some sort of objective (maybe?) law or path of enlightenment. What if there really is an objective philosophical path of conscious ascension? What if most world religions were not that far off for exactly out consciousness does this?

I feel much more comfortable with that top of God than I do the intangible super-11-dimensional Creator. You know? But what IF that IS the ultimate "God"? Mormons don't rule out the possibility of God having a God.

Then that makes me think...is there an almost infinite number of conscious ascension? Areas that I cannot even comprehend at this point nor will be able to comprehend for billions of years?

It may seem weird, but I hope so.

Regardless, it would seem I'm much more atheistic than I want to admit. At last Mormons are. We don't believe in Ex Nihilo creation. We also believe that God created the solar system by organizing pre-existing matter (clearly indicating that he God we believe in was born in this universe...AFTER its creation). So, by this definition, Mormons technically are atheists...compared to their counterparts. We don't believe in some sort of super God but a tangible Universally bound God. He's limited. Maybe He is somewhere between Clarke's Strong and Weak god, but He's not this God that some people would want.

Maybe this whole time the Christian theologians have believed in the "super duper" God I referred to, earlier, but they actually attributed it all to our lesser "god"? Seems so.

Then the whole concept of God becomes nebulous and becomes a label rather than something official.

My hope is we can create god, in some form. Based on my perceptions of the universe, the probability of a being similar to a Weak or even strong Clarke God are high. This is my opinion.

What if the ascension to such a state of mind actually causes someone to become more like a sincere Uatu? Meaning, we ascend only to a state of observation and become meaningless to the actual interactions of the 11-dimensional plane? That's fine by me, as well.

Sure why not. It's no more far-fetched than anything else I've heard of. I don't know about that whole observer thing though. That would get really boring really quick. I'd rather not exist anymore than have to sit and observe.

I figured it out guys. It's a win win situation.

You either die and meet your maker and live eternally forever. And all the unjust go to that one nasty place.

Or you die and the nothingness. A deep sleep that you will never know.

Either way your at peace.

💃

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I figured it out guys. It's a win win situation.

You either die and meet your maker and live eternally forever. And all the unjust go to that one nasty place.

Or you die and the nothingness. A deep sleep that you will never know.

Either way your at peace.

💃

Close...

But the oblivion option is not "at peace". That implies a state of being of enjoyment. Impossible if nothing exists.

Originally posted by socool8520
I don't know about that whole observer thing though. That would get really boring really quick. I'd rather not exist anymore than have to sit and observe.

Well, being pure-thought with no biological influences would make it fairly impossible to get bored. You don't have the neural processes working in the background while you perform tasks (such as observation) so there is no trigger to tell your mind "yo, dude...you're getting bored." As a pure thought entity, you'd have perfect concentration and you'd never get bored. But, apparently, perfect entities still get "jealous", 313 so I digress.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Close...

But the oblivion option is not "at peace". That implies a state of being of enjoyment. Impossible if nothing exists.

I agree with you. But my other statement works. A sleep you will never know. Since technically your not even a sleep but you won't ever know or feel anything since its..... nothing. But to some the idea of the nothingness does probably appeal to them after living such a long time, so it can be argued that the idea of being in the nothingness is a peace to the mind to the person before the nothingness happens.

Now let me do my dance in peace.

💃 💃 💃 💃 💃 💃

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I figured it out guys. It's a win win situation.

You either die and meet your maker and live eternally forever. And all the unjust go to that one nasty place.

Or you die and the nothingness. A deep sleep that you will never know.

Either way your at peace.

💃

You're*

You're also only taking a small subset of possible afterlives. There's an infinite set of potential afterlives ruled by despots as well, where both the just and the unjust receive punishment. How are your two scenarios more likely than those?

Or maybe it's karmic reincarnation. Or maybe the afterlife is neutral in moral terms, or variable. To pretend that every possible scenario ends with some sort of "peace" is silly.