Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The "nasty place" is inside of each of us, including you. It is all a matter of our choice.
Yes, I totally agree with this.
Heaven, just like Hell isn't a geographical place. It's a mental one.
If there is something after death (which I believe there is) the way your thoughts are now will determine what the afterlife will be - so if you're a hateful, disgusting person, you'll mingle with hateful and disgusting souls too.
There's no Devil prodding you with a poker or demons or whatnot. It's other souls like you, projecting their hate, anger, greed and general nastiness on each other, as bodies are no longer there to hide their true self.
If there is Hell, then I believe that's what it is. Such souls will continue to suffer at their own general nastiness until they either overcome their hate, anger, greed or whatnot or reincarnate and try to mature in spirit again in life.
I don't think hell is a judgement or punishment...it's a reflection of us...or like a purification or something.
That's one possibility...I at least believe it might be like this.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes, I totally agree with this.Heaven, just like Hell isn't a geographical place. It's a mental one.
If there is something after death (which I believe there is) the way your thoughts are now will determine what the afterlife will be - so if you're a hateful, disgusting person, you'll mingle with hateful and disgusting souls too.
There's no Devil prodding you with a poker or demons or whatnot. It's other souls like you, projecting their hate, anger, greed and general nastiness on each other, as bodies are no longer there to hide their true self.
If there is Hell, then I believe that's what it is. Such souls will continue to suffer at their own general nastiness until they either overcome their hate, anger, greed or whatnot or reincarnate and try to mature in spirit again in life.I don't think hell is a judgement or punishment...it's a reflection of us...or like a purification or something.
That's one possibility...I at least believe it might be like this.
We agree on some things, but not on all. I believe that we do not experience life after death. We only experience life after life. The time between incanations doesn't exist for us.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes, I totally agree with this.Heaven, just like Hell isn't a geographical place. It's a mental one.
If there is something after death (which I believe there is) the way your thoughts are now will determine what the afterlife will be - so if you're a hateful, disgusting person, you'll mingle with hateful and disgusting souls too.
There's no Devil prodding you with a poker or demons or whatnot. It's other souls like you, projecting their hate, anger, greed and general nastiness on each other, as bodies are no longer there to hide their true self.
If there is Hell, then I believe that's what it is. Such souls will continue to suffer at their own general nastiness until they either overcome their hate, anger, greed or whatnot or reincarnate and try to mature in spirit again in life.I don't think hell is a judgement or punishment...it's a reflection of us...or like a purification or something.
That's one possibility...I at least believe it might be like this.
This is surprisingly close to what I believe, as well. Hell is a state of mind.
The only "real" hell we believe in, in Mormonism, is outer darkness which is simply a state of being without God's presence, entirely. The "hell" comes in because we are only thinking entities, at that point, so we are doomed to 0 progression as thought entities. I still think there is a form of joy that can be obtained in such an eternal existence. Even progression. But it is limited.
Oh...and...you choose to go to "outer darkness". You're not cast down to "hell".
But what you said above is much closer to what I personally believe and what I really think happens in a Mormon afterlife as well.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Obviously the people in the nasty place won't be a joyfull peace that I'm reffering to. Oh well. Peace for the good. And if there is nothing then peace out ha ha
My point is, not knowing, you can't even assume "peace for the good." You're working with only a subset of possible afterlives and treating like the total sum of possible afterlives.
Originally posted by Digi
My point is, not knowing, you can't even assume "peace for the good." You're working with only a subset of possible afterlives and treating like the total sum of possible afterlives.
No assuming for the peace.
New version:
A win....win.
Its either a something....or a nothing. We don't have a choice in the matter of what it is. If it is something be thankful. If its nothing be thankful for the time you had before the nothing.
Forget peace and be be thankful. DD1 finding the neutral zone.
One of the common threads in the mystical schools of thought is that "the end" is, ultimately, a positive experience, with any bad experiences along the way having to do with the "attitude" of the person dying. Offhand, I'm not familiar with any literature which claims a horrible afterlife overall, other than some Western-religionistic dogma whose aim may be to subjugate the masses while they're still alive.
Originally posted by Mindship
One of the common threads in the mystical schools of thought is that "the end" is, ultimately, a positive experience, with any bad experiences along the way having to do with the "attitude" of the person dying. Offhand, I'm not familiar with any literature which claims a horrible afterlife overall, other than some Western-religionistic dogma whose aim may be to subjugate the masses while they're still alive.
do you consider Zoroastrianism Western?
afaik, most people wouldn't put Islam in the West either
Originally posted by dadudemon
This is surprisingly close to what I believe, as well. Hell is a state of mind.The only "real" hell we believe in, in Mormonism, is outer darkness which is simply a state of being without God's presence, entirely. The "hell" comes in because we are only thinking entities, at that point, so we are doomed to 0 progression as thought entities. I still think there is a form of joy that can be obtained in such an eternal existence. Even progression. But it is limited.
Oh...and...you choose to go to "outer darkness". You're not cast down to "hell".
But what you said above is much closer to what I personally believe and what I really think happens in a Mormon afterlife as well.
I think hell being a state of mind makes a bit more sense than an endless physical pain (which technically only bodies can experience).
I'm happy that, even though we have different religions, we're in agreement on so many things in terms of afterlife, soul and such.
I wish that all religions could come together like this.
Originally posted by Mindship
I use the term "Western" and "Eastern" as colloquialisms. Perhaps "Abrahamic" would be better.I'm not that familiar with Zoro'm.
Being the oldest monotheistic religion in the world, I think they're the ones who first brought about the views of heaven and hell we have today.
I also think they have weird laws about conversion and such - it's totally not an evangelical type thingy. I think Iranians should scrap Islam and revert back to Zoroastrianism.
Originally posted by Mindship
I use the term "Western" and "Eastern" as colloquialisms. Perhaps "Abrahamic" would be better.I'm not that familiar with Zoro'm.
Going by non-Abrahamic though, there are many systems that had unpleasant versions of the afterlife. Hades was not a fun place, for instance.
Further, don't most faiths that see the end as good also see the now as the evil one is trying to escape? I mean, the concept of Nirvanah as the end of the cycle of suffering seems to me to be at least analogous to the Heaven/Hell distinction, only with a different take on the relationship of the two (avoiding hell as punishment, escaping hell as reward).
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Being the oldest monotheistic religion in the world, I think they're the ones who first brought about the views of heaven and hell we have today.
do we know they are connected? It wouldn't surprise me at all for concepts of "absolute good" and "absolute evil" to have arisen independently in multiple places.
Originally posted by inimalist
...
Further, don't most faiths that see the end as good also see the now as the evil one is trying to escape? I mean, the concept of Nirvanah as the end of the cycle of suffering seems to me to be at least analogous to the Heaven/Hell distinction, only with a different take on the relationship of the two (avoiding hell as punishment, escaping hell as reward)...
Buddha used expedient means to teach people true enlightenment. In other words, he took the beliefs of the people, and told them what they wanted to hear. Once they begin to listen, he slowly over time modified his teaching to bring people along. In the Lotus Sutra this is explained in detail. The old teachings are done away with when the student is ready for the truth.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Buddha used expedient means to teach people true enlightenment. In other words, he took the beliefs of the people, and told them what they wanted to hear. Once they begin to listen, he slowly over time modified his teaching to bring people along. In the Lotus Sutra this is explained in detail. The old teachings are done away with when the student is ready for the truth.
so it would be inaccurate to describe achieving Nirvana as ending the cycle of suffering?
Originally posted by inimalistI tend to regard polytheistic religions as more "magical thinking" than derived from insight or revelation, as the latter ultimately (supposedly) points to the "One True Reality." Even Hinduism has Brahman, with lesser deities corresponding, eg, to the "emanations" in Kabbalah. In other words, there are numerous, ascending levels between us and the Absolute. Different cultures draw them differently (in effect, the same deep structure manifested through different surface structures).
Going by non-Abrahamic though, there are many systems that had unpleasant versions of the afterlife. Hades was not a fun place, for instance.
Originally posted by inimalistMy understanding is, Hell is an endpoint. Story finished, you suffer forever. However, as I mentioned/implied in my initial post, along the way to the Good End in the "Eastern" faiths, there may be suffering along the way (eg, The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a nice account), but in the end, the Ultimate awakens to its true, original nature, which has generally been described as bliss beyond measure.
Further, don't most faiths that see the end as good also see the now as the evil one is trying to escape? I mean, the concept of Nirvanah as the end of the cycle of suffering seems to me to be at least analogous to the Heaven/Hell distinction, only with a different take on the relationship of the two (avoiding hell as punishment, escaping hell as reward).
Originally posted by inimalist
so it would be inaccurate to describe achieving Nirvana as ending the cycle of suffering?
As Nichiren said "Suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy."
You must ask yourself, why did the Buddha return if he was free of the cycle of suffering? Nirvana could not hold him, and retuning was his choice. The answer is surprisingly simple, this is Nirvana. Just like heaven and hell are states of mind, Nirvana is also. We believe that all people have Buddhahood in them, but they are just asleep to this state of mind.
Originally posted by Mindship
I tend to regard polytheistic religions as more "magical thinking" than derived from insight or revelation, as the latter ultimately (supposedly) points to the "One True Reality." Even Hinduism has Brahman, with lesser deities corresponding, eg, to the "emanations" in Kabbalah. In other words, there are numerous, ascending levels between us and the Absolute. Different cultures draw them differently (in effect, the same deep structure manifested through different surface structures).
sure, there are still non-abrahamic faiths that have negative ideas of the afterlife though
Originally posted by Mindship
My understanding is, Hell is an endpoint. Story finished, you suffer forever. However, as I mentioned/implied in my initial post, along the way to the Good End in the "Eastern" faiths, there may be suffering along the way (eg, The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a nice account), but in the end, the Ultimate awakens to its true, original nature, which has generally been described as bliss beyond measure.
sure, thats why I used the term analogous.
Heaven in almost all faiths is described as bliss beyond measure
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
As Nichiren said "Suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy."You must ask yourself, why did the Buddha return if he was free of the cycle of suffering? Nirvana could not hold him, and retuning was his choice. The answer is surprisingly simple, this is Nirvana. Just like heaven and hell are states of mind, Nirvana is also. We believe that all people have Buddhahood in them, but they are just asleep to this state of mind.
how could buddha return from something that was simply a state of mind? or how can something be both the present and a state of mind if that state of mind isn't awake in the present?
like, cool, interesting form of buddhism... i suppose...