Questions about Dooku

So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?

2. He was superior to all in the force of his time save for yoda?

3. When he went to dakrside he became more powerful?

4. Did he refine/perfect/evolve makashi over the time he left to when he fought in the triology?

5. In one of the books mace stated he would likely lose/die if he fought and engaged dooku even though he mace had the element of surprise on his side?

6. Was dooku more powerful then mace windu in sabers and force? Or is it never directly stated?

7. Going by statements , clues alone since mace feared dooku didn't want to fight him, thought he would lose, does this mean dooku was his superior?

8. Could vaapad harm dooku much?

Originally posted by Board Walker
So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?

2. He was superior to all in the force of his time save for yoda?

3. When he went to dakrside he became more powerful?

4. Did he refine/perfect/evolve makashi over the time he left to when he fought in the triology?

5. In one of the books mace stated he would likely lose/die if he fought and engaged dooku even though he mace had the element of surprise on his side?

6. Was dooku more powerful then mace windu in sabers and force? Or is it never directly stated?

7. Going by statements , clues alone since mace feared dooku didn't want to fight him, thought he would lose, does this mean dooku was his superior?

8. Could vaapad harm dooku much?

1. Yes. However, we have no idea when Dooku was superior to Mace. Could have been when Mace was a Padawan for all we know (Dooku was 30 years older, afterall.)

2. Where the force is concerned, Yoda and Sidious were probably Dooku's only superiors in that period.

3. "Powerful you have become, Dooku... The dark side I sense in you."

4. I believe it was stated somewhere [can't recall the source right now] that Dooku had mastered Makashi before ever leaving the Jedi order.

5. If this was actually stated somewhere, I have never heard/seen it before. Tbh, I highly doubt it's validity.

6. Dooku was likely more powerful with the force... But that advantage didn't help him against Anakin -- nor did it help Sidious against Mace. /shrug

7. I highly doubt Mace 'feared' anyone... Let alone Dooku. Again, I question the validity of this supposed statement.

8. Vaapad would absolutely work in Mace's favor vs. Dooku.

Board Walker
So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?

Board Walker
2. He was superior to all in the force of his time save for yoda?

Board Walker
3. When he went to dakrside he became more powerful?

Board Walker
4. Did he refine/perfect/evolve makashi over the time he left to when he fought in the triology?

Board Walker
5. In one of the books mace stated he would likely lose/die if he fought and engaged dooku even though he mace had the element of surprise on his side?

Board Walker
6. Was dooku more powerful then mace windu in sabers and force? Or is it never directly stated?

Board Walker
8. Could vaapad harm dooku much?

Faunus: In shatterpoint, I believe the statement was from Dooku's POV, wasn' it? Not yoda's?

Originally posted by truejedi
Faunus: In shatterpoint, I believe the statement was from Dooku's POV, wasn' it? Not yoda's?

"In my dreams, I'm on the arena balcony. Geonosis. Orange glare slices shadow from my eyes. Below on the sand: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Senator Padme Amidala. On the rough-shaped stone within reach of my arm: Nute Gunray. Within reach of my blade: Jango Fett. And Master Dooku. No. Master no more. Count Dooku. I may never get used to calling him that. Even in dreams.

Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it. Even if I had never seen Kenobi's report from Kamino, I can feel the violence Jango radiates: in the Force, a pulsar of death. But I do it right. My blade doesn't light the underside of Fett's square jaw. I don't waste time with words. I don't hesitate. I believe.

In my dreams, the purple flare of my blade sizzles the gray hairs of Dooku's beard, and in the critical semisecond it takes Jango Fett to aim and fire, I twitch that blade and take Dooku with me into death. And save the galaxy from civil war. I could have done it."

egads: I meant the quote from Dark Rendevous, about only Mace, perhaps, could challenge dooku on even ground.

I thought that was from Dooku's perspective.

Originally posted by truejedi
egads: I meant the quote from Dark Rendevous, about only Mace, perhaps, could challenge dooku on even ground.

I thought that was from Dooku's perspective.

"As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."

Though imo, Mace would be Dooku's definitive superior, IF he fully embraced Vaapad.

So if he pulled a Bulq and fell to the Dark Side?

^ If he fought to the same 'standard' as when he battled Sidious.

I see no reason to believe that Mace is necessarily Dooku's superior.

I tend to see things rather neutral, and I don't understand why Mace would be dooku's superior?

From what I've read both dooku and mace have their strong points, but from all I've read It just seems Dooku is overall if all their respective stats were added up, that dooku would come out on top of Windu's total?

Could some one also explain to me why Windu is held so high in opinion on this forum? I don't read much of the mythos, except for playing the games, and reading forums and wookiepedia.

Such as claims that Windu is superior to any dark sider due to vaapad? I thought vaapad was a juyo based fighting style with the addition of the user tapping their dark side potential and channeling it? But don't sith users already do this? Or is it that vaapad users, channel their opponents dark side energy through their own self and use it against their adversary? If this is the case, I still don't see vaapad as being a instant win against dark siders. As it would have a limit depending upon the user of it, and if his opponent is vastly stronger then him and deeply rooted in the dark side, I see vaapad as being able to channel only what the user of it is able to handle.

Any thoughts on this? Gideon what do you think? I just don't understand how people view windu/vaapad the way they do, am I missing some thing, or some quote perhaps from a text?

Also while on the subject, did sidious purposely lose the saber fight to windu, and feign weakness with his force lightening? Or did George Lucas ever state in cannon statement that Sidious was defeated in saber combat without him throwing the fight?

Also could Sidious have killed Windu with his lightening, or was he truly unable to overcome Windu reflecting it? And did Sidious become disfigured because of the lightening being deflected? or was that his true form all along?

Originally posted by Board Walker
I tend to see things rather neutral, and I don't understand why Mace would be dooku's superior?

Forgoing that though, there is the style difference to take into account - Dooku using Makashi which does not generate enough kinetic energy in order to combat successfully the more aggressive forms....and Vaapad being the most aggressive and arguably the most powerful form. The naturally powerful form added onto Mace Windu's "I crush and rip durasteel battle droids with my bare hands" Force-assisted strength.

So....yeah.

Why Mace is held in high esteem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk

Originally posted by Board Walker
So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?

2. He was superior to all in the force of his time save for yoda?

3. When he went to dakrside he became more powerful?

4. Did he refine/perfect/evolve makashi over the time he left to when he fought in the triology?

5. In one of the books mace stated he would likely lose/die if he fought and engaged dooku even though he mace had the element of surprise on his side?

6. Was dooku more powerful then mace windu in sabers and force? Or is it never directly stated?

7. Going by statements , clues alone since mace feared dooku didn't want to fight him, thought he would lose, does this mean dooku was his superior?

8. Could vaapad harm dooku much?

1. Well, before leaving the Order Dooku was stated to be able to outduel Mace, although I don't think that whether or not he could consistently was made clear.

2. As of in between TPM and AOTC (in between TPM and AOTC is when Dooku left the Order), Yoda > Dooku, Sidious > Dooku, and Mace by this point possibly > Dooku.

3. Apparently according to a quote, yes.

4. Yes, Dooku had already mastered Makashi and a bunch of other forms by the time he left the Order.

5. I'm not sure about this quote, sorry.

6. I don't think that Dooku was directly stated to be > Mace at all.

7. Not necessarily; you can be superior to some enemy and still fear them.

8. When Dooku fell to the dark side, yes, Mace once he had completed making and mastering Vapaad would be superior to Dooku in most cases.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. Well, before leaving the Order Dooku was stated to be able to outduel Mace, although I don't think that whether or not he could consistently was made clear.

"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, 112.

I believe Dooku left the Order before Mace perfected Vaapad.

Could some one also explain to me why Windu is held so high in opinion on this forum? I don't read much of the mythos, except for playing the games, and reading forums and wookiepedia.

Him beating Palpatine.

I see vaapad as being able to channel only what the user of it is able to handle.

Vaapad enabled him to overcome the most powerful sith lord in history.

I just don't understand how people view windu/vaapad the way they do, am I missing some thing, or some quote perhaps from a text?

ROTS and Shatterpoint.

Also while on the subject, did sidious purposely lose the saber fight to windu, and feign weakness with his force lightening? Or did George Lucas ever state in cannon statement that Sidious was defeated in saber combat without him throwing the fight?

Mace used Vaapad to tie Sidious.
Mace used Shatterpoint to beat Sidious.

Then Sidious threw the force fight.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, Dooku was absolutely awed by Palpatine's power and skill and clearly realized his inferiority to him....yet Mace beat Palpatine. This alone would lead me to believe that Mace would also beat Dooku.

Forgoing that though, there is the style difference to take into account - Dooku using Makashi which does not generate enough kinetic energy in order to combat successfully the more aggressive forms....and Vaapad being the most aggressive and arguably the most powerful form. The naturally powerful form added onto Mace Windu's "I crush and rip durasteel battle droids with my bare hands" Force-assisted strength.

So....yeah.

Originally posted by Enyalus
"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, 112.

I believe Dooku left the Order before Mace perfected Vaapad.

An argument could be made that Mace never truly perfected Vaapad until he stopped fearing his own darkness, and fully gave himself over to the form (RotS.)

It's also worth mentioning that we have no idea when Dooku bested Mace. Could have been when Mace was just a Padawan -- could have been just before Dooku left the order (the same year TPM occurred.) We just don't know. What we do know is that Dooku was 30 years older than Mace. That could certainly account for quite an experience edge/advantage (especially if these duels took place in Mace's younger years.)

Originally posted by Shoes
Mace used Vaapad to tie Sidious.
Mace used Shatterpoint to beat Sidious.

Then Sidious threw the force fight.

Originally posted by Galan007

Which was still ineffective until Ankakin intervened.

Notice how he threw it after Anakin arrived. Sidious could have kept going. Notice how Mace was visibly struggling in the film. Notice how the novel states that he could not continue. Notice that in the split second that it took for Anakin to cut off his arm, Palpatine stood up and blasted him with lightning.

^ Actions speak louder than words. ie. regardless of Mace saying that he could not keep going, he did in fact keep going until Palpatine's FL dropped/he literally melted...

"[Mace] had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-""

The quote regarding Mace's defeat at Dooku's hands is binding, but isn't extremely specific or detailed. First, it could have happened prior to Windu's completion of Vaapad. Second, it could have been in a series of duels or sparring matches and Dooku would only have needed to win one of them in order for the quote to be valid. Third, both combatants have matured and evolved since then, and not necessarily at an identical pace.

That said, I'm not sure I want to just assume that Windu is the Count's superior. As Enyalus points out, Mace did defeat Sidious and Dooku was terrified of Palpatine and his dark powers (Dark Rendezvous), but given that Sidious was far more attuned to the dark side of the Force, there may have simply been a fluke advantage that Windu possessed in that duel that would not necessarily be present if Windu were to fight Dooku.

I'd say that they're equals, all things considered.