RE: Blaxican
Well, personally. Considering that GL said something along the line of you needing to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous, not you need to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous when he is throwing the fight, I feel that GL at least thinks that Mace possesses the necessary skill to defeat Sideous.
The correct word is "compete," not defeat.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Well apparently anyone is capable of gutting someone else as long as they possess lightsabers.
Correct. However GL said nothing about their chances of killing Palpatine, only that they could. Every Jedi could kill Palpatine. The quote is irrelevant. Whereas if Palpatine could kill two master swordsmen before Mace can react, it's a sure bet that Palpatine can do the same to Windu.
The problem with you making such a cute little statement is that it conveniently excludes the first half of the statement, which is that only yoda and mace of the PT order were capable of beating him. Thus, the addition of a lightsaber is obviously not the only requirement.
?
You seem to think because GL doesn't state something, that makes it irrelevant and baseless. Using this logic, nobody is physically capable of cutting Palpatine's head off, aside from Mace and Yoda. I guess nobody is capable of killing an unarmed, bound, and force-severed Palpatine.
Originally posted by Gideon
And if we had the reasoning skills of a five year old, that might be enough. No one denied that he was overpowered, but that does not confirm or suggest that Windu is as powerful or more powerful than the Emperor.
Well sure if you want to use technicalities and squirm around like you've been doing for the past few posts in here. 😐
Originally posted by Shoes
[B] Whereas if Palpatine could kill two master swordsmen before Mace can react, it's a sure bet that Palpatine can do the same to Windu.
Except that it actually isn't.
?You seem to think because GL doesn't state something, that makes it irrelevant and baseless. Using this logic, nobody is physically capable of cutting Palpatine's head off, aside from Mace and Yoda. I guess nobody is capable of killing an unarmed, bound, and force-severed Palpatine.
No.
Blax
Well sure if you want to use technicalities and squirm around like you've been doing for the past few posts in here. 😐
You've been unusually caustic in our past few exchanges; please take your racial insecurities elsewhere. It's hardly my fault that this is still a honkey's world. 😐
In any case, I didn't get a quote completely wrong (like you) nor am I ignoring blatant circumstances (like you).
The fact remains that Palpatine was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic and hardly possessed the time (given his demanding schedule [the man ran two galactic-spanning factions]) or the inclination (Dooku was already a master swordsman and Labyrinth of Evil confirms that Sidious did not waste time training him further in that department), not to mention the surprising lack of evidence suggesting that he trained with his lightsaber at all, seems to indicate that he was out of practice.
As Shoes pointed out, Mace had four to one odds (a team of celebrated swordsmen), preparation, and relatively confined space would should have worked to his advantage, given the level of coordination and cohesion presumably available to Jedi Masters.
Despite those advantages, two of Mace's entourage were killed in the same amount of seconds, and despite Fisto's active assistance, Mace was unable to defeat Palpatine until (as per the novelization) he submerged himself into Vaapad.
Skill-wise and power-wise, you've failed to deliver anything that Windu is Palpatine's equal or superior.
Now I'm clearly right and you're clearly wrong, but this needn't interrupt our sexual relationship. 😐
Originally posted by ShoesYet Palpatine is the one who gave out first... mmm
Mace had to have his energy pass through him, and then be redirected back at Palpatine, whereas Palpatine absorbed his pain and turned it into more power. Mace has a limit here, Palpatine does not.
Originally posted by RE: BlaxicanThe quote in question only pertains to that particular lightsaber hidden within that particular statue... As TJ said, Palps was not limited to a single blade.
I had hoped that that wasn't the case, as it doesn't mean much."Decades" means multiple decades. Anything less than two decades does not count under "decades". So that would mean that he hadn't touched his lightsaber in at least twenty years.
That is something that I have trouble believing, considering that he trained two apprentices within those twenty years.
What that quote says to me, is that he had multiple lightsabers. That conclusion also has a logical backing.
Gideon (although you might still have me on ignore):
1. If Sidious was out of practice for so many years as you suggest, then wouldn't that be evidence that Mace, an extremely skilled duelist who invented his own form that was among the deadliest ever invented and constantly fought in the Clone Wars, would be Sidious's superior in technical lightsaber skill?
2. Sidious arguably had more preperation for the fight than Mace. Mace had to hurry and gather a team against a foe of whose level he knows virtually nothing about, whereas Sidious likely studied Mace and knew how powerful he was.
Originally posted by Gideon
[B]You've been unusually caustic in our past few exchanges; please take your racial insecurities elsewhere. It's hardly my fault that this is still a honkey's world. 😐
Lock up your daughter, lock up your wife. Lock up your back door and run for your life.
I am going to rape everyone you love. Including your pets.
In any case, I didn't get a quote completely wrong (like you) nor am I ignoring blatant circumstances (like you).
No, YOU.
The fact remains that Palpatine was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic and hardly possessed the time (given his demanding schedule [the man ran two galactic-spanning factions]) or the inclination (Dooku was already a master swordsman and Labyrinth of Evil confirms that Sidious did not waste time training him further in that department), not to mention the surprising lack of evidence suggesting that he trained with his lightsaber at all,
Wait, are you insinuating that a master can not learn, or expand? That's illogical, especially considering that sparring is the best way to keep lightsaber skills up. Also, you're dancing. On the one hand you state that Sideous is too busy to do any kind of training, but on the other hand you specify only lightsaber training.
You also cleverly ignore Maul. Nigga.
seems to indicate that he was out of practice.
Lack of evidence can not "suggest", or indicate, anything. This is why the defense can not get by just by shooting down the persecution's evidence.
As Shoes pointed out, Mace had four to one odds (a team of celebrated swordsmen), preparation, and relatively confined space would should have worked to his advantage, given the level of coordination and cohesion presumably available to Jedi Masters.Despite those advantages, two of Mace's entourage were killed in the same amount of seconds, and despite Fisto's active assistance, Mace was unable to defeat Palpatine until (as per the novelization) he submerged himself into Vaapad.
Doing well against a group of fighters does not in itself suggest superiority toward any of them in a 1 vs 1 scenario. In fact looking at the amount of 1v3 and 1v2 matches throughout the mythos, the lone combatant almost always does better against the group then after he whittles them down to just one person.
There's also the fact that it's way harder to not accidentally chop your friends face off when the both of you are attacking the same target, and even more hard when there's four of you. Masters or not, accidents happen, and caution is nescesarry.
Skill-wise and power-wise, you've failed to deliver anything that Windu is Palpatine's equal or superior.
Hahaha. And you say you're not ignoring circumstances!
Now I'm clearly right and you're clearly wrong, but this needn't interrupt our sexual relationship. 😐
Shut up. You're not even my real dad.
Originally posted by Gideon
Second, nothing indicates or states that Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior. As mentioned before, Palpatine displayed superiority early on in the duel; he slaughtered two of Windu's team before Windu could intervene and then took Fisto and Mace on simultaneously; both of them together weren't enough to defeat him.
Originally posted by Gideon
Mace was unable to defeat Palpatine until (as per the novelization) he submerged himself into Vaapad.Skill-wise and power-wise, you've failed to deliver anything that Windu is Palpatine's equal or superior.
That sounds like a contradictio in terminis to me. He was able to defeat Palpatine by using a skill that Palpatine wasn't able to counter. Wouldn't that mean that he was superior, skill-wise (at least when it came to lightsabers, and at the time of their duel, rusty saber skills set aside)?
Anyway, sometimes I get the feeling these threads are about criticising other people's way of reasoning than actually sharing knowledge about Star Wars 😛
Originally posted by EnyalusOkay, then what exactly are we equating Vaapad to? Skill or power? I ask because Mace's use of Vaapad made he and Sidious no less than equals (with Shatterpoint being the factor that made Mace superior.)
I agree. And to back up this point, the Episode III Visual Dictionary states that "Darth Sidious isn't worried about any Jedi who managed to survive Order 66. [b]Even united, Yoda and Obi-Wan pose no threat..." This is the same Yoda who is, per Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, "the Order's true master of lightsaber combat." Ergo, if Yoda doesn't possess more skill than Sidious, then certainly Mace does not. Likewise with Force power. [/B]
Originally posted by Galan007
Okay, then what exactly are we equating Vaapad to? Skill or power? I ask because Mace's use of Vaapad made he and Sidious no less than equals (with Shatterpoint being the factor that made Mace superior.)
I'd call Shatterpoint a Force talent.
Originally posted by EnyalusRegardless of the 'mechanics' of Vaapad, it is still a form of lightsaber combat (as you said.) Thus I personally think it's logical/fair to say that Mace = Palpatine from a skill standpoint... Tbh, I don't know what else you could call it. /shrug
As Vaapad is a lightsaber form, I'd call it a skill. Fully submerged in Vaapad, he was equal to the Emperor's speed and power....but only because the skill of Vaapad allowed him to duplicate the Emperor's speed. So uh, even though Vaapad's skill is Mace's own, it really took Mace's skill plus Palpatine's own power being borrowed in order to simply equal him. So I don't know, how would you see that/what would you call it?I'd call Shatterpoint a Force talent.
Agreed.