Questions about Dooku

Originally posted by Gideon
That said, I'm not sure I want to just assume that Windu is the Count's superior. As Enyalus points out, Mace did defeat Sidious and Dooku was terrified of Palpatine and his dark powers (Dark Rendezvous), but given that Sidious was far more attuned to the dark side of the Force, there may have simply been a fluke advantage that Windu possessed in that duel that would not necessarily be present if Windu were to fight Dooku.

I'd say that they're equals, all things considered.

Remember, during Dooku's battle with Anakin, one of the main reasons he began to falter was because Makashi just did not possess enough kinetic force to compete with the raw power Anakin's Djem So brought to the table...

"[Anakin] was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - RotS

That same inherent drawback with Makashi would be especially present vs. Mace (as Vaapad arguably possesses the most raw power of any form.) Not only that, but Mace would also be tapping Dooku's own darkness to further empower himself/Vaapad in battle..... And there's also that pesky Shatterpoint to think about.

I dunno, it just seems like Mace has advantages of which are hard to imagine Dooku getting around. srug

I don't buy [most of] that. I have about zero faith in the Djem So-vs-Makashi argument, simply because we've seen on-screen and in the novels that Count Dooku is capable of holding Anakin and Obi-Wan at bay simultaneously; the novelization is canon, sure, but while Djem So might generate more kinetic energy than Makashi, that doesn't mean that Dooku is helpless against a physically stronger adversary -- this is, after all, the man who casually sparred with General Grievous. What Makashi may lack in kinetic power it makes up for in efficiency, economy, and speed.

Furthermore, Anakin is unlike most other duelists in that he actually grows stronger as a battle progresses. Dooku had much more trouble with Skywalker's vastly superior Force reserves than he did with Anakin's sheer physical strength; whatever can be said of Windu, I don't believe that he has a superior command of the Force or superior Force reserves than Count Dooku.

Like I said, my conclusion here might very well be the result of the perceived stupidity in making Mace Windu Count Dooku's flat-out superior, especially since everything else at least implies that they're equals.

Originally posted by Gideon
Like I said, my conclusion here might very well be the result of the perceived stupidity

😛

the thing that doesn't imply their equality is Mace beating a Sidious who terrified Dooku.

TJ
the thing that doesn't imply their equality is Mace beating a Sidious who terrified Dooku.

Mace defeated Palpatine in a lightsaber duel under a precise set of circumstances; nowhere is it indicated or stated that he is Palpatine's superior by way of skill or power.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Actions speak louder than words. ie. regardless of Mace saying that he could not keep going, he did in fact keep going until Palpatine's FL dropped/he literally melted...

"[Mace] had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-""

The omnicient narrarator claims that Mace had no strength left. I infer from this that Mace could not keep going for an extended period of time. This quote alone proves that his force assault was quite "effective", and left Windu drained afterwords.

Moreover, it makes absolutely no sense if Palpatine actually lost the force battle. Mace had to have his energy pass through him, and then be redirected back at Palpatine, whereas Palpatine absorbed his pain and turned it into more power. Mace has a limit here, Palpatine does not.

Originally posted by Gideon
Mace defeated Palpatine in a lightsaber duel under a precise set of circumstances; nowhere is it indicated or stated that he is Palpatine's superior by way of skill or power.

What were those circumstances?

what circumstances made it an unrepeatable result?

He won't always find his shatterpoint? That's the only one I can think of.

1. Palpatine was thirteen years out of practice; Windu, on the other hand, had participated in duels and combat regularly.

2. Windu had three other Jedi Masters with him when the duel began, Palpatine targeted the other three first and displayed initial superiority by taking on Windu and Fisto simultaneously and then pushing Windu back.

3. Anakin's presence; while I'm not suggesting that Palpatine threw the fight to Mace, it is painfully obvious that he exaggerated his weakness and his defeat in order to force Anakin's hand.

^ Windu's defeat of Palpatine was legitimate, but nowhere was it said or implied or shown that Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior in anything.

Originally posted by Gideon
Mace defeated Palpatine in a lightsaber duel under a precise set of circumstances; nowhere is it indicated or stated that he is Palpatine's superior by way of skill or power.

Looks like Lucas wished to indicate Mace's superior skill. 😄 😱

GIDEON THOSE ARE WEAK CIRCUMSTANCES. FEW OF THEM INDICATE THAT MACE'S ADVANTAGES WILL NOT APPLY TO A BATTLE WITH DOOKU. OTHERS FAIL TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ASSERTION THAT MACE'S VICTORY IS INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO DECLARE HIM SUPERIOR TO PALPATINE.

Originally posted by Gideon
1. Palpatine was thirteen years out of practice; Windu, on the other hand, had participated in duels and combat regularly.

Out of curiosity where is this stated? From a logical standpoint it was would make sense that staying in top fighting shape would be imperative toward surviving the overthrow of the Republic. A genius such as Palpatine is surely not foolish enough to assume that none of the Jedi could possibly survive Order 66 and reach him?

2. Windu had three other Jedi Masters with him when the duel began, Palpatine targeted the other three first and displayed initial superiority by taking on Windu and Fisto simultaneously and then pushing Windu back.

3. Anakin's presence; while I'm not suggesting that Palpatine threw the fight to Mace, it is painfully obvious that he exaggerated his weakness and his defeat in order to force Anakin's hand.

^ Windu's defeat of Palpatine was legitimate, but nowhere was it said or implied or shown that Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior in anything. [/B]

Well, personally. Considering that GL said something along the line of you needing to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous, not you need to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous when he is throwing the fight, I feel that GL at least thinks that Mace possesses the necessary skill to defeat Sideous.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Out of curiosity where is this stated? From a logical standpoint it was would make sense that staying in top fighting shape would be imperative toward surviving the overthrow of the Republic. A genius such as Palpatine is surely not foolish enough to assume that none of the Jedi could possibly survive Order 66 and reach him?

ROTS.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid,
and not all of it was neuranium.
Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had
been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute
darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.
Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

He hadn't touched his saber in decades.

Doing well against a group of fighters does not in itself suggest superiority toward any of them in a 1 vs 1 scenario. In fact looking at the amount of 1v3 and 1v2 matches throughout the mythos, the lone combatant almost always does better against the group then after he whittles them down to just one person.

He killed two master swordsmen while Mace could only raise his blade. If Palpatine had chosen to engage Mace first, he probably could have gutted him there.

GL at least thinks that Mace possesses the necessary skill to defeat Sideous.

Yes. All Jedi technically are capable of killing Sidious, as they are equipped with a lightsaber. GL is simply stating that they both can kill him. The difference between them and every other ROTS era Jedi, is that they pose a significantly larger threat to him. This doesn't necessarily translate into a victory.

Originally posted by Shoes
ROTS.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid,
and not all of it was neuranium.
Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had
been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute
darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.
Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

He hadn't touched his saber in decades.

What part of that is a quote and what isn't?

He killed two master swordsmen while Mace could only raise his blade. If Palpatine had chosen to engage Mace first, he probably could have gutted him there.

Well apparently anyone is capable of gutting someone else as long as they possess lightsabers.

Yes. All Jedi technically are capable of killing Sidious, as they are equipped with a lightsaber. GL is simply stating that they both can kill him. The difference between them and every other ROTS era Jedi, is that they pose a significantly larger threat to him. This doesn't necessarily translate into a victory. [/B]

The problem with you making such a cute little statement is that it conveniently excludes the first half of the statement, which is that only yoda and mace of the PT order were capable of beating him. Thus, the addition of a lightsaber is obviously not the only requirement.

In the words of the great Shao Kahn: You have failed!

FAIIILLEEDDD!

What part of that is a quote and what isn't?

darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.

I had hoped that that wasn't the case, as it doesn't mean much.

"Decades" means multiple decades. Anything less than two decades does not count under "decades". So that would mean that he hadn't touched his lightsaber in at least twenty years.

That is something that I have trouble believing, considering that he trained two apprentices within those twenty years.

What that quote says to me, is that he had multiple lightsabers. That conclusion also has a logical backing.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Goddammit. This would've helped a few days ago.

Originally posted by Shoes
ROTS.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid,
and not all of it was neuranium.
Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had
been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute
darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.
Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

He hadn't touched his saber in decade[b]s.

[/B]

That quote won't do as proof. Sidious obviously had another saber, since he lost that saber in his fight with Mace, and used another against Yoda.

First, Labyrinth of Evil outright confirms that Palpatine didn't have anything to do with Count Dooku's lightsaber training, since Dooku was already a master swordsman.

Second, nothing indicates or states that Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior. As mentioned before, Palpatine displayed superiority early on in the duel; he slaughtered two of Windu's team before Windu could intervene and then took Fisto and Mace on simultaneously; both of them together weren't enough to defeat him.

It was only when Windu submerged himself in Vaapad was he only able to equal the Sith.

Third, there clearly isn't any evidence suggesting that Palpatine had kept up his dueling practice so far.