Originally posted by Enyalus😑
So, to answer your point...no, the ritual did not involve him draining the Massassi. But it did require him draining the Massassi.
Originally posted by EnyalusThis brings up the same bone of contention made against Sadow for his star destroying and Nihilus for his Gigadrain; such a destructive technique, and he uses it... once. And unlike the other two, Kun did it at the last minute, on willing participants/slaves, not for the purpose of Draining his enemies, but to enhance himself. There's nothing to suggest that he can focus that technique on one powerful enemy. And if he can, the man is so absolutely forgetful, that he'd be killed before he gets around to it.
Also, I don't know what that has to do with anything - it's irrefutable proof that he can Force Drain someone. Which was the whole point of bringing up the feat.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
😑
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This brings up the same bone of contention made against Sadow for his star destroying and Nihilus for his Gigadrain; such a destructive technique, and he uses it... once.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And unlike the other two, Kun did it at the last minute, on willing participants/slaves, not for the purpose of Draining his enemies, but to enhance himself. There's nothing to suggest that he can focus that technique on one powerful enemy.
Also, if he can do it to thousands of willing Force-sensitives, why can't he do it to one Sith-turned-Jedi apprentice? Generally, it takes more focus to affect an entire group rather than one individual.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And if he can, the man is so absolutely forgetful, that he'd be killed before he gets around to it.
Originally posted by Enyalus
The TOTJ Companion states, "Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocron and tomes."Which, when you think about it, is understandable. The guy did study directly from King Adas' holocron and Naga Sadow's spirit.
What do you have in mind, regarding Force feats aside from Force Choking a non-Force-sensitive from a possible few lightyears away?
Dooku took down two Jedi Masters, Sora Bulq and Tholme at once - while fatigued. And Anakin and Obi-Wan, of course. If you want to go with low-feats, suited Vader was nearly killed by a Tuskan Raider after burying his first secret apprentice.
I have no idea what that even is. A magazine or something? Is it canon?
In this scenario, Kun has a body...his own. Why won't he be able to duplicate what he does to Luke in Kyp's body, to Galen in Kun's own body?
I'm unsure what you want me to prove here. The ritual was to separate Kun's body from his spirit. In order to do that, he needed the combined power of all the Massassi he had gathered. Then he uses the Sith ritual to separate his spirit from his flesh. He drains them first - then the ritual commences:So, to answer your point...no, the ritual did not involve him draining the Massassi. But it did require him draining the Massassi.
Also, I don't know what that has to do with anything - it's irrefutable proof that he can Force Drain someone. Which was the whole point of bringing up the feat.
Also also....it doesn't look like he's wearing his gauntlets/amulets there, so no case for power amping can be made against him.
Originally posted by Enyalus😖
You're probably tired. Read it a few more times. It makes sense. I promise.
Originally posted by EnyalusIt's called PIS. The Death Star was given an excuse though. The other ones, Nihilus especially, are still ambiguous.
I have a simple way of explaining the contention...plot. You can't have people running around using this kind of power repeatedly. Hell, even the Death Star was only fired once. Would someone try making that a point of contention, and if so, would you listen to them without laughing?
Originally posted by EnyalusKay.
Kun explains himself in the comic. Ulic contacts him via commlink while he's aboard a Jedi vessel en route to Yavin 4. Kun knows that all the Jedi are coming for him, and he admits that he cannot defeat all of them. Instead, he opted for becoming a spirit and taking another crack at it later....something goes wrong when the thousands of Jedi above Yavin use Force Sever, though. I see nothing wrong with what Kun tried to do. It was decent strategic thinking, knowing that he couldn't defeat them all at once.
Originally posted by EnyalusGenerally. But it's not the same thing. He's shown to have done the technique once, under very specific and controlled circumstances with very specific and anticipated results. Facing down against a very powerful opponent is not the same as draining a willing sacrificial populace. There are questions and variables.
Also, if he can do it to thousands of willing Force-sensitives, why can't he do it to one Sith-turned-Jedi apprentice? Generally, it takes more focus to affect an entire group rather than one individual.
1.) Can Kun perform the drain without compliance from his victims?
2.) Can he do it without the use of obelisks and bondage chains?
3.) Can he do it within the very few seconds he has when facing a one-on-one duel? I.e. can he can do it at well any time or any place?
4.) Is that drain different from the kind employed by Nihilus, Kreia, or Palpatine (each of those respectively different), and if so, how will that affect a direct combat scenario?
5.) Are the results of his type of drain always the same? I.e. Is transcension always the result, or are their others?
6.) Do the amount of people he can perform it affect said unknown results?
Originally posted by EnyalusYou're probably tired. Read it a few more times. It makes sense. I promise.
I don't get it. lol
😱
Originally posted by ares834
In his duel against Roan Shyrne he rips apart a bridge and tosses pieces of it at Roan at such speeds that Roan is unable to block it all.
Originally posted by ares834
Later on she attack hims and he toys with her. Here is an excerpt. “At the last instant the Dark Lord thrust both hands downward toward the spinning bounty hunter. A profound surge in the Force rippled through the room. Guards posted at a distance in the hallway nearby were nearly knocked off their feet by it. But the strength of the emanation had not been directed at them.” He then proceeds to pin her in place while casually walking around. And this is just shortly after donning his suit.
Originally posted by ares834
The tusken Raider thing has printed under the infinties label deeming it non-canon.
Originally posted by ares834
Proove that Kun can.
Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps, but it still doesn't mean he can use on an unwilling opponent.
Originally posted by ares834
However, all the power seems to be going to the obelisk he is strapped too...
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's called PIS. The Death Star was given an excuse though. The other ones, Nihilus especially, are still ambiguous.
"However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster."
That's per the KOTOR Campaign Guide, and is prior to mentioning his destruction of Katarr.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
1.) Can Kun perform the drain without compliance from his victims?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
2.) Can he do it without the use of obelisks and bondage chains?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
3.) Can he do it within the very few seconds he has when facing a one-on-one duel? I.e. can he can do it at well any time or any place?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
4.) Is that drain different from the kind employed by Nihilus, Kreia, or Palpatine (each of those respectively different), and if so, how will that affect a direct combat scenario?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
5.) Are the results of his type of drain always the same? I.e. Is transcension always the result, or are their others?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
6.) Do the amount of people he can perform it affect said unknown results?
How does Galen defend against it? This would be a foreign technique to him. He's never met the Emperor, and Vader doesn't know it.
Originally posted by Enyalus
He rips up multiple pieces of wooden ramps and hurls them at Roan. Roan's forte is definitely not telekinesis nor, obviously, telekinetic defense. But Vader's struck 3 times by Roan's lightsaber in that duel, and Roan is hardly a Dooku in the saber department. Doesn't bode well for the Dooku/Suited Vader argument.
That's not that impressive to me. Aurra was a failed padawan, afterall, with minimal Force abilities and defenses.
Okay then. Boba Fett vs. Vader on Mustafar. Almost as bad as the pirate thing. 😛
Kun rips the spirits from the dozens of Massassi children after he creates the Golden Globe to hold them in, while he has his body.
You're kidding, right? It's Force Drain. Not some esoteric technique never before heard of. He just uses it on a more massive scale. How is Galen going to stop a technique he has no experience with/against?
Originally posted by ares834
This is still Vader before he has gotten used to the suit. And the wounds Roan inflicted were superficial, however once Vader fully tapped into the dark side Roan was ****ed. Vader managed to rip up boards and fling them at a Jedi Knights at speeds faster than he can parry, this guy can deflect blaster bolts but is unable to stop Vader's "missles".
Originally posted by ares834
Aurra wasn't a failed padawan she was captured and sudeced to the dark side. And she is hardly weak afterall she managed to kill the Jedi Hero Sharad Hett.
Originally posted by ares834
However, that's not the point. Vader was able to overload a lightsaber and his force push was so powerful that guard a hallway away were nearly knocked down even though he had not aimed it at them.
The lightsaber thing, I'm not sure how to deal with.
Originally posted by ares834
Vader was destroying Boba Fett, Boba only got the upper hand because Vader really wanted the head.
Originally posted by ares834
Ok?
Originally posted by ares834
We still don't know the conditions when he used it. He may have needed items such as the obalisk or perhaps he has to have time to preform it.
And if you want to continue being difficult, I'll just opt for Exar using Force Kill on Galen. He does it with a wave of his hand in a combat situation against Jedi Master Odan-Urr, after Odan was fully aware of and prepared for Exar being a Sith Lord and after resisting Odan's Force Sever (of which he was said to be the master of)....The technique would again be completely foreign to Starkiller.
Originally posted by EnyalusI know, I was generalizing.
Canon evidence yields the conclusion that while we only see it once, he has done it before -"However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster."
That's per the KOTOR Campaign Guide, and is prior to mentioning his destruction of Katarr.
Originally posted by EnyalusAnd I'll ask again, can he? He's never shown to do it before this. Unless you have evidence to believe otherwise...
I'll ask again...why not? It's a Force Drain. Unless you have evidence to believe otherwise...
Originally posted by EnyalusDon't be glib.
I don't know. I heard Exar liked it rough. Getting clawed up by Sylvar, the bondage chains...He might not be in the mood without the bondage chains.
Originally posted by EnyalusHow much time passed within those panels? Would you say, 2 seconds?
In one panel, Exar tells the Massassi priest to summon the others. The next panel shows the Massassi coming into the temple. And the panel after that shows him already draining them.
Originally posted by EnyalusWell we have Nihilus' Gigadrain that kills life and he feeds off them. There's Palpatine's Drain which siphons of their life energy to maintain his own. There's that other one that Drains your... Force powers (?). And there's Kun's that fuels his ritual.
Should it be different? Is there evidence for believing it's a different kind of drain? Remember, he's not using the drain in the ritual, he's using the drain for the ritual.
Originally posted by EnyalusAgain, he's been in battle before. Where was his instantaneous and singular use of it then? He could have drained Vodo. Or the Senate. Or any enemy he ever encountered.
No. He is very specific that he needs to drain the Massassi in order to have the strength to sunder his flesh from his spirit. The draining is the draining - for the power. The ritual is the ritual - to separate his body from his soul with that stolen power.
Originally posted by EnyalusWell hopefully Galen figures out a clever escape plan while Exar gradually drains him of his life.
Why is this a question? More beings = more Force being drained = more power being consumed...unless you're a Force prodigy like Galen, then maybe those thousands of Massassi being drained add up to one Galen Marek. But I doubt it.
Originally posted by EnyalusSee above above.
How does Galen defend against it? This would be a foreign technique to him. He's never met the Emperor, and Vader doesn't know it.
Originally posted by Derelite
uhhh galen is superior because he defeated him...
I meant how is Krayt superior to Galen? Based on my knowledge he isn't.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, Galen wasn't a Sith Lord, which is why I didn't put him in the list. But yeah, Galen > suited Vader, too.I don't have anything specifically pointing to Krayt being more powerful than suited Vader. I feel due to his lightsaber resistant armor, his two sabers instead of Vader's one, and his ability to use Force Lightning, that he'd beat Vader solidly in a straight fight. I'm not read-enough on Legacy in order to debate that, though, so feel free to disagree.
I don't have anything to add to the Exar and rituals thing. I've said what I will on it. Suffice to say, he does not need a ritual in order to Drain someone of the Force or their life or tear their soul out. And Galen has no defense against it, because he's completely unfamiliar with it.
I don't think that Krayt has displayed anything putting him on par with Vader or Galen.
Didn't Exar need to possess Kyp and utilize his Force potential in order to perform that move that put Luke (who wasn't at his best yet) in a coma?
Originally posted by EnyalusBlocking force attacks that killed his storm troopers instantly, ragdolled a Jedi powerful enough to rip a space station apart(he did so casually to), rag dolling kento marek, sent a force wave that destroyed a massive barrier, seizing a telekinetic storm of giant pillars which nearly killed galen marek in their final duel, force gripped an entire hut that was stated to be "as strong as steel" and casually crushes it. Lets not forget how Vader was able to tank lightning that was powerful enough to collapse and destroy an entire ATAT as well as moving fast enough to dodge blaster bolts in the empire comic.
What do you have in mind, regarding Force feats aside from Force Choking a non-Force-sensitive from a possible few lightyears away?
While his formerself(Anakin) was far more agile and a much better dueler, his current self eclipses his former self in force mastery and sheer brute force.
Remember in the TFU game, how vader got wtf pwned at the very last minute by having his helmet torn off, face smashed into a heat shield, has a shield generator thrown at him, gets smashed through a thick wall and then smashed through another pillar due to the incredible force thrown at him? Well he gets back ion his feet in mere minutes and takes absolutely no damage from mareks suicide attack which destroyed the tower and killed every storm trooper...
Revan got completely knocked out when a mere turbo lazer hit his ship, showing far less endurance, this guy took a massive beating to a whole new level that would have killed 95% of the force users in the mythos.
Conclusion: Vader isn't as pathetic as you put him out to be, and many of these feats demonstrated were combat feats.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And I'll ask again, can he? He's never shown to do it before this. Unless you have evidence to believe otherwise...
Also, I just checked and the KOTOR Campaign Guide, under Exar Kun's entry lists Drain Force among his powers.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How much time passed within those panels? Would you say, 2 seconds?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Well we have Nihilus' Gigadrain that kills life and he feeds off them. There's Palpatine's Drain which siphons of their life energy to maintain his own. There's that other one that Drains your... Force powers (?). And there's Kun's that fuels his ritual.
The Dark Side Sourcebook says that the device he was strapped to during the ritual was the same alchemical apparatus he used to mutate the Massassi and it was that which he used to separate his spirit from his body. Meaning, what he was strapped to has no bearing at all on the Drain that he used. The only semi-valid question is whether Kun could use it on someone who was not willing...and since it's a Force Drain, the answer to that is 'yes' unless the person can defend against it.
Also, Nihilus' drain is an exception to the Force Drain listed because he is a Wound in the Force, and thus, his ability works differently than other Force-users.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Again, he's been in battle before. Where was his instantaneous and singular use of it then? He could have drained Vodo. Or the Senate. Or any enemy he ever encountered.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I don't think that Krayt has displayed anything putting him on par with Vader or Galen.Didn't Exar need to possess Kyp and utilize his Force potential in order to perform that move that put Luke (who wasn't at his best yet) in a coma?
Raw strength in the Force, I agree - Krayt is behind.
Exar needed to possess Kyp because he didn't have a freaking body and was a 4,000 year old spirit. 😐 Give the guy a break, will you?
Originally posted by Gideon
"Has knowledge of" = "the ability to use"? Since when?
While normally I'd agree with the distinction, the quote is listed under 'Special Abilities' where what Force techniques the being can use are listed. That leads me to believe that he's able to utilize every Force power mentioned in the Companion. Do you disagree, or were you seeking clarification?
Originally posted by Alistair
Blocking force attacks that killed his storm troopers instantly, ragdolled a Jedi powerful enough to rip a space station apart(he did so casually to), rag dolling kento marek, sent a force wave that destroyed a massive barrier, seizing a telekinetic storm of giant pillars which nearly killed galen marek in their final duel, force gripped an entire hut that was stated to be "as strong as steel" and casually crushes it. Lets not forget how Vader was able to tank lightning that was powerful enough to collapse and destroy an entire ATAT as well as moving fast enough to dodge blaster bolts in the empire comic.
Also powerful enough to kill a Jedi that can phase through walls.While his formerself(Anakin) was far more agile and a much better dueler, his current self eclipses his former self in force mastery and sheer brute force.
Remember in the TFU game, how vader got wtf pwned at the very last minute by having his helmet torn off, face smashed into a heat shield, has a shield generator thrown at him, gets smashed through a thick wall and then smashed through another pillar due to the incredible force thrown at him? Well he gets back ion his feet in mere minutes and takes absolutely no damage from mareks suicide attack which destroyed the tower and killed every storm trooper...
Enyalus
While normally I'd agree with the distinction, the quote is listed under 'Special Abilities' where what Force techniques the being can use are listed. That leads me to believe that he's able to utilize every Force power mentioned in the Companion. Do you disagree, or were you seeking clarification?
I disagree, because it is not stated that he can use any of them.
