The Old Republic Sith Empire vs the Yuuzhan Vong

Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually, Blax was right: I didn't have the necessary freetime to continue this during the last week because of "having a life", which ocassionally keeps me busy enough not to get bored, which is the only reason for me to actually come here. That aside: Where did you defeat my argument?

Ok then, although it's hard to tell if you're telling the truth or not. Still, sorry if I offended you.

Somehow I think you don't get what happened. If Sadow's illusions multiplied the Sith forces a thousandfold, the betrayal took 99,9% of his troops away. The next took away a comeback and finally, the entire governing body of the Sith Empire was either wiped out or forced to retreat, with the actual enemy appearing in the - now undefended - heart of the Empire.
That aside you don't take any psychology into consideration. The Galactic Empire fell apart when the Emperor and the second in command were killed in the Battle of Endor, despite being far superior to the Rebel Alliance. Similar situation, similar outcome.

Basically, the betrayals took away his illusions, and apparently without his illusions the sith got creamed.

I don't care what you find hard to believe. Read the comics and stay with the facts instead of attempting to argue out of ignorance.

Fair enough

Because they would be united and fighting an enemy invading their own Empire.

Since when would an invasion of their homeworld somehow unite them? You and Team Empire claimed that Earth would not unite when the Empire invaded.

Again, you're arguing against the facts. Even Sidious had to search ancient sources to find the location of certain Sith worlds and the man had more resources at his disposal than anybody else. It's not that the location of the Sith worlds was common knowledge...

Maybe, but the same could be said for the reverse.

Care to explain how you are able to read "average Sith" when I'm typing "Ancient Sith Lords"? Care to explain how the Tribe of the Sith apprentices are even remotely compareable to people that studied the Dark Side and Sith Magic for centuries? Apparently you have no idea what the Ancient Sith are capable of. Again, I can only advice you to check the source material instead of arguing out of ignorance.

[quote]

Wtf? I'm referring to Luke, Jaina and Jacen vs 20 average ancient sith. The word "ancient" does not make them more powerful. Sure, the famous and powerful ancient sith were, well, powerful, but not every ancient sith was on the level of Ragnos.

[quote]

Did you, by chance, miss the fact that the Vong don't have force users capable of locating other force users - in contrast to the NJO? That aside: The Meditation Sphere is a mobile ship, semi-sentient and the Vong would need to search it somewhere in Sith space, without even knowing the extend of the Sith space nor that they actually need to search for the sphere.

Sensors anyone?

And the same could be said for the reversed; how are the sith going to track down the YV, who would have vastly superior hyperdrive, sensors and jammers?

This is complete speculation. We know that their ships were superior to Republic ships constructed 1,500 years later. We also know that force enhanced technology can yield results that "normal" invention isn't capable to offer. For example the Aing-Ti-Monks ability to "teleport" their ships through the Galaxy. The Sith, however, do have the means to keep up with armor / weapons thanks to Sith Alchemy.

The sith apparently got creamed when they lost their illusions. Had they really been that superior to the Old Republic forces, they would have won even if they lost their illusions.

You were refuting facts?
Let's be honest: You have no idea, how the technology compares to that of the Vong, neither do I. Who cares? This was never part of my original argument which, much to your dismay, isn't based on "conventional warfare". So I don't really get why everything you say is aimed at that topic. Desperation?

You were stating that the sith had superior technology in terms of superweapons. I was refuting that.

Neither will he be attacked, nor will all planets of the Empire be attacked simultaneously. Why? The Vong don't have his location, don't know that he even exists, don't have the locations of the Sith worlds and don't have the forces to attack them all at once.

Why would the YV invade the sith empire without knowing where the sith are?

And again, the same thing could be said in reverse. The sith would have no idea where the YV worlds are located, and the YV ships would have superior hyperdrive, sensors and jammers.

And you're arguing against the facts once again. I told you before that it doesn't make sense to compare the technology of two different cultures evolving seperated from each other. Centerpoint Station is 100,000 years old and still was the most effective weapon used against the Vong. The Vong are utilizing technology that is a 1,000 years old and still compares to that of the Republic. The Sith had weapons that were totally superior to anything but the Sun Crusher, 5,000 years before the latter was invented. That aside you're once more aiming at conventional warfare here, ignoring the entire purpose of my argument.

You're implying that the technological gap between the sith and the Republic was that big, but it obviously wasn't. The Celestials had already existed for quite a while by the time that they created Centerpoint Station, and the Rakata had already had several milenia to advanced by the time that they created the Star Forge. The sith empire was at about the same technological level as the Republic when the sith empire was founded, and both civilizations coexisted. The sith did not have several more milenia to advance.

No. I'm the one that introduced a quote saying it had "well over a hundred planets"...

And then you kept on mentioning "100 planets" and boasting about that.

Again: Arguing out of ignorance.
The invasion of the YV was coined by genocidal tactics like destroying / terraforming planets and killing all inhabitants. Thusly 1/3 of the Galactic population was killed, which is hardly "a very small proportion of the number of combatants", unless you want to assume that there were more combatants than actual inhabitants of the Galaxy. And stop pulling conclusions out of nowhere. The Battle of Coruscant saw the amassed invasion force of the YV (minus what they had lost before) and many of the warriors did commit suicide, after the death of Shimra. So how does it follow from there that the YV had "billions" of troops?

Good point. However, my point about the sith empire having a limited amount of troops compared to the YV still stands.

The YV neither have the information nor the forces to attack all Sith planets. Even if they could, Sadow would conjure illusional fleets and armies to take it up with them, which would still result in the YV losing by attrition sooner or later.

Again, the same could be applied in reverse. It would be easier for the YV to find 100 planets than for the sith empire to find however many planets the YV have AND their fleets, which would have advanced hyperdrive, sensor and jamming systems superior to that of the sith empire.

The alternative: The Vong show up in Sith space and the Sith Lords detonate the next star to wipe the entire invasion fleet out with a single attack. They could also attack the Vong with illusional fleets, outnumbering them totally and send some of the most powerful Dark Side users in history of the SW universe in for personal confrontation. This is not even mentioning the monsters and other nice gimmics created via Sith Alchemy, with the latter being force enhanced version of plot devices that you can wear as jewelry, sometimes able to wipe out entire armies on their own in the hands of a halfway decent force user. Hell. What stops them from thought-bombing the Vong?

"detonate the next star" - as you said about the YV finding the sith planets, how will the sith locate the YV fleet?

"illusional fleets" - Sadow would have to conjure up a lot of illusional fleets if he is to make up for the numerical and technological gap. Also, would the YV even be affected by the illusions?

In terms of conventional warfare, the Vong would most likely win, maybe even curbstomp the Sith. Adding the Siths abilities to manipulate the force, and they have a decent shot to take down the Vong with their "unnatural" abilities.

Well, your stance is now more defensible since you've changed it. However, your primary defense that the YV would not be able to locate the sith planets works in reverse as well. As soon as the YV locate the sith planets the sith are screwed.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Basically, the betrayals took away his illusions, and apparently without his illusions the sith got creamed.

The Battle of Endor just took away two leaders, a few troops and a few ships of the Empires massive forces which resulted in them losing the Galactic Civil War. Would this be a reason for you to assume that the Galactic Empire couldn't take out the Rebel Alliance in a straigth forward confrontation, bringing all of it's forces to the field?

Since when would an invasion of their homeworld somehow unite them? You and Team Empire claimed that Earth would not unite when the Empire invaded.

Again: Did you read the comics? When Sadow fakes an attack on the Sith forces by the Republic citizens (Gav and Jori), all of the Sith want to punish them but only his followers (and he gained some additional ones there) wanted to invade Republic space as revenge action. When the enemy force shows up in their Empire, they won't hesitate.

Maybe, but the same could be said for the reverse.

How so?

Wtf? I'm referring to Luke, Jaina and Jacen vs 20 average ancient sith. The word "ancient" does not make them more powerful. Sure, the famous and powerful ancient sith were, well, powerful, but not every ancient sith was on the level of Ragnos.

You are still comparing apples to oranges here and now you are trying to defend that kind of reasoning? Once again: The Sith that attacked Luke and Ben where mostly apprentices that had precisely nothing in common with Sith Lords, even less with ancient Sith Lords. Then they were attacking eachother while taking it up with the Skywalkers. And it's the fact that the Ancient Sith had centuries to study the force makes them powerful (besides their magical gimmics) not the "ancient" qualifier.

Sensors anyone?

And the same could be said for the reversed; how are the sith going to track down the YV, who would have vastly superior hyperdrive, sensors and jammers?

Does it occur to you that the range of sensors is limited to single star-systems, probably even less? That won't help much. And why would the Sith be in need to search for an enemy invading their Empire. Logic anybody?

The sith apparently got creamed when they lost their illusions. Had they really been that superior to the Old Republic forces, they would have won even if they lost their illusions.

No. About 50 % of the Sith forces (if even that) were defeated when they lost their illusions due to betrayal. Point: They have at least twice as many troops now and they won't lose their illusions here.

You were stating that the sith had superior technology in terms of superweapons. I was refuting that.

You can't refute facts. Their force enhanced technology is pretty much ahead of everything else the current SW universe has to offer.

Why would the YV invade the sith empire without knowing where the sith are?

Because the thread-starter said so. If you don't want to argue the topic, then don't hit the reply button. This question is especially nonsensical in context of a versus-forum. Why would NJO Luke challenge NJO Kyp Durron in a duel? How is Exar Kun going to fight Sidious? 🙄

And again, the same thing could be said in reverse. The sith would have no idea where the YV worlds are located, and the YV ships would have superior hyperdrive, sensors and jammers.

Is this some kind of joke? The Vong are the invasion force here. Their worlds are in another Galaxy and completely empty (because the YV left them or totally destroyed them). The YV have superior hyperdrive? Proof it! Superior sensors? In comparison to a Galaxy spanning energy field that would show giant "black holes" where the Vong are? Besides that: Proof the superiority of their sensors and don't even dare to state that those of the Sith are older. Superior jammers? Again: Proof it. And how does that compare to tangible illusions that can be summoned out of nowhere?

Hell. Proof that they have sensors and jammers at all. I can clearly remember that the Vong hated technology and thusly were forced to do everything via bio-engeneering. So I'd love to see what their bio-engineered scanners and jammers are capable of. I'm certain you have quotes from the source material supporting your points. If not: Drop them.

You're implying that the technological gap between the sith and the Republic was that big, but it obviously wasn't. The Celestials had already existed for quite a while by the time that they created Centerpoint Station, and the Rakata had already had several milenia to advanced by the time that they created the Star Forge. The sith empire was at about the same technological level as the Republic when the sith empire was founded, and both civilizations coexisted. The sith did not have several more milenia to advance.

Is it fun to keep arguing against the facts? Firstly: The Sith Empire and the Republic didn't coexists. They were seperated from each other entirely. Just the Jedi Exiles did visit the Sith Empire. And we have seen that after 2,000 years of seperated technological development, the Sith are more than 1,500+ years ahead of the Republic when it came to military ships. Which is still just refering to "regular" technology.

And then you kept on mentioning "100 planets" and boasting about that.

Because I could only have speculated how high the number was, which doesn't matter because 100 planets are already too much for your "Vong plan" to work.

Good point. However, my point about the sith empire having a limited amount of troops compared to the YV still stands.

Really? I've yet to see any proof that the YV outnumber the Sith. Oh wait a second. There aren't actual numbers for either of the factions, which means that you are speculating without any proof for your speculation.

De facto, it makes more sense to assume that a civilization that spans 100+ worlds consists of more people than a civilization that has first almost destroyed itself and spent the last millenium traveling to another Galaxy in spaceships, while reducing their numbers even further via infighting.

Again, the same could be applied in reverse. It would be easier for the YV to find 100 planets than for the sith empire to find however many planets the YV have AND their fleets, which would have advanced hyperdrive, sensor and jamming systems superior to that of the sith empire.

Now you're entirely ignoring the setup of the fight in order to hand in anything. This is called reaching and I won't continue this debate if you don't have anything else to offer. The Vong invade the Sith Empire with all they have. That's it. No need for the Sith to search for fleets and even less planets.

"detonate the next star" - as you said about the YV finding the sith planets, how will the sith locate the YV fleet?

Because the Vong invade them. Stop ignoring the setup of the fight.

"illusional fleets" - Sadow would have to conjure up a lot of illusional fleets if he is to make up for the numerical and technological gap. Also, would the YV even be affected by the illusions?

Are we talking about the technological and the numercial advantage that you have failed to provide any proof for? And since Sadow has been said to have summoned "innumerable" fleets and troops, that should be quite enough.

Well, your stance is now more defensible since you've changed it. However, your primary defense that the YV would not be able to locate the sith planets works in reverse as well. As soon as the YV locate the sith planets the sith are screwed.

No. It doesn't work in reverse, because the Sith are being attacked here and not vice versa. My stance didn't change a bit. You've apparently just chosen to ignore it so far, and you still ignore it pretty well, given that you are still attempting to argue conventional warfare, where I keep repeating (essentially) that the Vong have no chance against the Dark Side abilities (+Sith Magic / Alchemy) that the Sith have at their disposal.

In addition to that, you are not only ignoring the setup for this fight here to hand in "arguments", you are also ignoring in universe facts in order to do so. Quite frankly: That doesn't make any sense and if that's all you have to offer, I'm not going to continue this "debate".

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Battle of Endor just took away two leaders, a few troops and a few ships of the Empires massive forces which resulted in them losing the Galactic Civil War. Would this be a reason for you to assume that the Galactic Empire couldn't take out the Rebel Alliance in a straigth forward confrontation, bringing all of it's forces to the field?

Those are two different scenarios. The Empire fell because without Palpatine the different potential rulers fought amongst themselves.

Again: Did you read the comics? When Sadow fakes an attack on the Sith forces by the Republic citizens (Gav and Jori), all of the Sith want to punish them but only his followers (and he gained some additional ones there) wanted to invade Republic space as revenge action. When the enemy force shows up in their Empire, they won't hesitate.

How does this prove that the sith would unite?

How so?

The YV have superior Stealth technology.

You are still comparing apples to oranges here and now you are trying to defend that kind of reasoning? Once again: The Sith that attacked Luke and Ben where mostly apprentices that had precisely nothing in common with Sith Lords, even less with ancient Sith Lords. Then they were attacking eachother while taking it up with the Skywalkers. And it's the fact that the Ancient Sith had centuries to study the force makes them powerful (besides their magical gimmics) not the "ancient" qualifier.

Luke and Ben, especially Luke, were in a very bad physical and mental condition; Luke had gone for possibly weeks without food or water, something that would kill any mortal human that I know of. Ben was also in a bad, albeit somewhat better, condition.

Luke went for I think 3 weeks without food or water.

And yet Luke and Ben still beat 15 sith.

Are you claiming that the power difference between a full health Luke, Jacen and Jaina sharing a Battle Meld and Luke that had gone for 3 weeks without food or water and Ben that was also not in a good condition is smaller than the power difference between 20 ancient sith and 15 sith apprentices?

If so, then you're wrong. Full health Luke, Jacen and Jaina sharing a Battle Meld > a starving Luke and a somewhat starving Ben by a larger margin than 20 ancient sith > 15 sith apprentices.

Get it?

Does it occur to you that the range of sensors is limited to single star-systems, probably even less? That won't help much. And why would the Sith be in need to search for an enemy invading their Empire. Logic anybody?

Just because a fleet is invading doesn't mean that the defender somehow knows the location of the other fleet.

No. About 50 % of the Sith forces (if even that) were defeated when they lost their illusions due to betrayal. Point: They have at least twice as many troops now and they won't lose their illusions here.

You're basically saying that, without their illusions, the sith got stomped by the Republic.

You can't refute facts. Their force enhanced technology is pretty much ahead of everything else the current SW universe has to offer.

You made this claim, and stated that nova causing sith weapon as evidence.

I refuted that claim, using the sun crusher as evidence.

After a misunderstanding, we're back to the same argument.

Because the thread-starter said so. If you don't want to argue the topic, then don't hit the reply button. This question is especially nonsensical in context of a versus-forum. Why would NJO Luke challenge NJO Kyp Durron in a duel? How is Exar Kun going to fight Sidious? 🙄

That's not my point. My point is that the YV would have gathered a knowledge of where the sith planets are before invading, and such knowledge can easily enough be gained from a sith soldier.

Is this some kind of joke? The Vong are the invasion force here. Their worlds are in another Galaxy and completely empty (because the YV left them or totally destroyed them). The YV have superior hyperdrive? Proof it! Superior sensors? In comparison to a Galaxy spanning energy field that would show giant "black holes" where the Vong are? Besides that: Proof the superiority of their sensors and don't even dare to state that those of the Sith are older. Superior jammers? Again: Proof it. And how does that compare to tangible illusions that can be summoned out of nowhere?

Hyperdrive - by the YV invasion era, class 1 hyperdrives were common, whereas class 3 hyperdrives were experimental at the start of the Clone Wars. (note that the lower the hyperdrive class, the faster)

Sensors - technology has evolved over time, you know. From what I know nav computers weren't even around or were very knew just the sith empire times.

Superior jammers - again, technology evolves even in SW.

Hell. Proof that they have sensors and jammers at all. I can clearly remember that the Vong hated technology and thusly were forced to do everything via bio-engeneering. So I'd love to see what their bio-engineered scanners and jammers are capable of. I'm certain you have quotes from the source material supporting your points. If not: Drop them.

Sensors are indeed mentioned according to the usually reliable Wookieepedia.

I'll ask you however, how you think that the YV almost took over the galaxy without sensors or jammers.

Is it fun to keep arguing against the facts? Firstly: The Sith Empire and the Republic didn't coexists. They were seperated from each other entirely. Just the Jedi Exiles did visit the Sith Empire. And we have seen that after 2,000 years of seperated technological development, the Sith are more than 1,500+ years ahead of the Republic when it came to military ships. Which is still just refering to "regular" technology.

My point is that the Republic and sith Empire evolved evenly throughout time, whereas your Celestial and Rakata analogy was flawed because those races already had a long time to advanced way before the modern SW civilizations had come to be.

Because I could only have speculated how high the number was, which doesn't matter because 100 planets are already too much for your "Vong plan" to work.

No, they aren't. 100 planets is a small number in SW terms, and the YV almost conquered a galaxy consisting of millions of planets.

Really? I've yet to see any proof that the YV outnumber the Sith. Oh wait a second. There aren't actual numbers for either of the factions, which means that you are speculating without any proof for your speculation.

I'm saying that the sith empire's population had to have fit on only 100 planets. Therefore, it must have been small compared to, say, the New Republic.

De facto, it makes more sense to assume that a civilization that spans 100+ worlds consists of more people than a civilization that has first almost destroyed itself and spent the last millenium traveling to another Galaxy in spaceships, while reducing their numbers even further via infighting.

You place italics around the 100 worlds figure as if bragging about it, even though the YV posed a significant threat to a civilization of a million worlds.

Now you're entirely ignoring the setup of the fight in order to hand in anything. This is called reaching and I won't continue this debate if you don't have anything else to offer. The Vong invade the Sith Empire with all they have. That's it. No need for the Sith to search for fleets and even less planets.

Because the Vong invade them. Stop ignoring the setup of the fight.

How does this equate to the sith somehow knowing where the YV are?

Are we talking about the technological and the numercial advantage that you have failed to provide any proof for? And since Sadow has been said to have summoned "innumerable" fleets and troops, that should be quite enough.

I have explained how the sith empire's population would have to be able to fit in only 100 planets, which is relatively small compared to civilizations such as the Galactic Alliance or Galactic Empire.

No. It doesn't work in reverse, because the Sith are being attacked here and not vice versa. My stance didn't change a bit. You've apparently just chosen to ignore it so far, and you still ignore it pretty well, given that you are still attempting to argue conventional warfare, where I keep repeating (essentially) that the Vong have no chance against the Dark Side abilities (+Sith Magic / Alchemy) that the Sith have at their disposal.

Illusions - I doubt that Sadow can generate illusions on 100 planets lightyears apart at once.

Superweapons - if the YV attack the sith planets, the sith will not be able to use superweapons unless if they want to destroy their own planets.

In addition to that, you are not only ignoring the setup for this fight here to hand in "arguments", you are also ignoring in universe facts in order to do so. Quite frankly: That doesn't make any sense and if that's all you have to offer, I'm not going to continue this "debate".

Your main defense is that the YV won't be able to find the sith planets. However, this can be said in reverse, and no, the defending civilization does not magically know the locations of fleets and planets of the attacking one.

bump (so that Nai can find it if he comes back online)

God you suck.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
God you suck.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
bump (so that Nai can find it if he comes back online)

You are an annoying moron of the worst variety. You are worse than Boog. You are worse than Neb ever was.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
God you suck.

Originally posted by truejedi
You are an annoying moron of the worst variety. You are worse than Boog. You are worse than Neb ever was.

W. T. F.???

That's sincerely my intention; to bump the thread so that Nai can see it (since our debate isn't over, and he doesn't come online that often, but when he does he might want to continue this debate) If you guys are annoyed by it, simply ignore it. Gosh.

BTW, I don't see how bumping a legitimate thread for a legitimate reason is more annoying than making a thread about Panzers vs AT-ATs (lord lucien) or making a thread about something vs a black bear (TJ).

He's still here. Why--HOW has he persisted this long?

What, you can't send him a PM? No, that's probably too personal, you have to show everyone how constipated you are.

I'd actually go to his house, put a gun to his face and force him to respond.

He wouldn't do it. He'd try to find the gun online and prove that it was designed to pick on him.

I'd make a gun online that's designed to pick on him...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
W. T. F.???

That's sincerely my intention; to bump the thread so that Nai can see it (since our debate isn't over, and he doesn't come online that often, but when he does he might want to continue this debate) If you guys are annoyed by it, [b]simply ignore it. Gosh.

BTW, I don't see how bumping a legitimate thread for a legitimate reason is more annoying than making a thread about Panzers vs AT-ATs (lord lucien) or making a thread about something vs a black bear (TJ). [/B]

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's still here. Why--HOW has he persisted this long?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you've bumped a fair number of threads that were YEARS old before, and you're accusing me of bumping a less than a month old one?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you've bumped a fair number of threads that were YEARS old before, and you're accusing me of bumping a less than a month old one?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm accusing you of nothing. I'm just pointing out the fact that you suck. Which yo do.

Which is a pointless, unsupported, mean and immature statement that has nothing to do with the topic.

Wow.

I'll bet you (figuratively, not actually betting) that any reason that you have that I "suck" can be applied to you as well.

Go on, provide a reason and I'm pretty sure that said criticism would be hypocritical of you.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Which is a pointless, unsupported, mean and immature statement that has nothing to do with the topic.

Wow.

I'll bet you (figuratively, not actually betting) that any reason that you have that I "suck" can be applied to you as well.

Go on, provide a reason and I'm pretty sure that said criticism would be hypocritical of you.

You're hypocritical (and thus human), you talk out of your ass, you don't know when enough is enough, you can't follow a grudge with humor, you're annoyingly tenacious in such pursuits, you're thick-headed, you misinterpret too much, you play the victim, you don't know how to shrug and move on, and you last but not leas, you won't go away.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How very sage.

You're hypocritical (and thus human), you talk out of your ass, you don't know when enough is enough, you can't follow a grudge with humor, you're annoyingly tenacious in such pursuits, you're thick-headed, you misinterpret too much, you play the victim, you don't know how to shrug and move on, and you last but not leas, you won't go away.

Notice how you have not supported any of the statements that you made in this post AND completely ignored my arguments?

If you don't like me, then so be it, but why bash me in so many threads, many in which I didn't even participate in? It wouldn't take that much more effort to instead explain to me (and back up your explanation) with logical reasoning. This is like the only forum in which I reguarly go to (KMC forums), so maybe you could teach me instead of bashing me.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Notice how you have not supported any of the statements that you made in this post AND completely ignored my arguments?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
If you don't like me, then so be it, but why bash me in so many threads, many in which I didn't even participate in?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It wouldn't take that much more effort to instead explain to me (and back up your explanation) with logical reasoning.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This is like the only forum in which I reguarly go to (KMC forums), so maybe you could teach me instead of bashing me.

First lesson: white folks cheat Don't take any flame or bash personally, try to see it as a way to learn and advance your understanding of people's expectations/perspectives/sociolinguistics. You have to be open to criticism and attack. Learn from it, don't fight it. Like I hope you're doing now reading this.