Originally posted by Gideon
It's probably not in the best interests of certain parties to conjure up seemingly retarded arguments. 😐
Why not?
@Beef: Reported for trolling. Go on with your pointless antagonizing and you can keep it up on my ignore list. If you don't have anything to say, refrain from posting. For somebody who begged me to be more civil with him a few weeks ago, you certainly behave yourself like a total ass. I'd love to know the reason for that. Boredom?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Why not?@Beef: Reported for trolling. Go on with your pointless antagonizing and you can keep it up on my ignore list. If you don't have anything to say, refrain from posting. For somebody who begged me to be more civil with him a few weeks ago, you certainly behave yourself like a total ass. I'd love to know the reason for that. Boredom?
I'm just following your lead Nai. There's no bigger ass than you on here which is weird because you bring in arguments bordering on insanity. Nobody "begged" you to be civil but you're the king of making things up, so please continue. And seeing as how I'm on your ignore list (allegedly), looks like you'll be talking to yourself from now on.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm just following your lead Nai. There's no bigger ass than you on here which is weird because you bring in arguments bordering on insanity. Nobody "begged" you to be civil but you're the king of making things up, so please continue. And seeing as how I'm on your ignore list (allegedly), looks like you'll be talking to yourself from now on.
Oh my goodness. I'll try to be civil now, DS:
Star Forge:
Where have I made things up, DS? I interpreted the words of Pall to the point where I assumed that the Ancient Sith Empire had access to the Star Forge. Is that legit? Yes, DS. It is. You can feel free to present your ideas on why my line of thought is wrong but stating "You made things up, Nai" doesn't cut it because I didn't put the lines of Pall into Kotor, did I?
The Dark Side abilities:
In Star by Star Jaina is capable of hitting multiple Vong with force lightning and all variations of that ability or seemingly variations (e.g. Luke's "green spark instakill"😉 seem to work just fine. Telekinesis also effect them directly, just to a lesser extend than normal beings (seen in Edge of Victory II: Rebirth).
Edit: As many Dark Side techniques are based on this "elemental" use of energy, I suppose that those who are would work against the Vong, much like attacks based on TK (force crush, choke etc.).
Notice: Non of that affects much of my argument, which means that you're simply nitpicking. Reason? Apparently you can't counter my argument and therefore you're attempting to attack me instead. Are you really that desperate, DS?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my goodness. I'll try to be civil now, DS:Star Forge:
Where have I made things up, DS? I interpreted the words of Pall to the point where I assumed that the Ancient Sith Empire had access to the Star Forge. Is that legit? Yes, DS. It is. You can feel free to present your ideas on why my line of thought is wrong but stating "You made things up, Nai" doesn't cut it because I didn't put the lines of Pall into Kotor, did I?
The Dark Side abilities:In Star by Star Jaina is capable of hitting multiple Vong with force lightning and all variations of that ability or seemingly variations (e.g. Luke's "green spark instakill"😉 seem to work just fine. Telekinesis also effect them directly, just to a lesser extend than normal beings (seen in Edge of Victory II: Rebirth).
Edit: As many Dark Side techniques are based on this "elemental" use of energy, I suppose that those who are would work against the Vong, much like attacks based on TK (force crush, choke etc.).
Notice: Non of that affects much of my argument, which means that you're simply nitpicking. Reason? Apparently you can't counter my argument and therefore you're attempting to attack me instead. Are you really that desperate, DS?
There's nothing to counter Nai. Your argument consists of wild assertions, nothing more.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Because of betrayal
A single betrayal destroyed their entire empire?
The Ancient Sith did curbstomp the Republic until the point were Gav did decide to take a shot at Sadow's meditation sphere.
Revan 1,500 years later, still using the same Sith ships that were utilized by the Ancient Sith - he almost conquered the Republic before, again, betrayal ensured that he wasn't capable of finish the job.
And of course we have the Dark Reaper. Mace Windu proclaimed that this device, in the PT - 5,000 years after the Ancient Sith did construct it - would have been enough to cause the end of the Republic. Again the device was only stopped because Ulic Qel-Droma told Anakin how to do it. The Vong would neither have the knowledge nor would they have the force users needed to stop it.
From what I read on Wookieepedia Ragnos was scared of invading the Republic.
Why didn't this dark reaper device end the war?
How so? They destroyed said Galaxy centuries in the past and killed a lot of the own troops during that action. It was a civil war among the Vong. Yet with the ability to smash moons through planets or wipe all life on a planet out with terraforming, you also don't need much forces to destroy a nice part of the Galaxy.
And what stops the Vong from doing the same to the sith, who only ruled a hundred or so worlds?
And I'd put my money on people who can point their arms in a certain direction and annihilate anything coming their way with room-sized blasts from their amulets.
That is a somewhat separate debate, but one that you would be in a severe disadvantage. Do you really think that some random ancient sith could stand a chance against NJO+ Luke?
You realize the difference between "argument" and "stating facts"? I'm just asking...
It's true. 9 > 8 > 7. A nuclear bomb of 2 megatons causes a bigger bang then a nuclear bomb of 1 megaton which causes a bigger bang than a nuclear bomb of 500 kilotons.
No. Later in my post I state that the only conflict between Sadow and Kressh was the question wether they should invade the Republic or not. In case of waging war against a common enemy, I doubt that they would spent much time with infighting. And the betrayal happened by a person that wasn't a member of the Sith Empire technically...
And if the sith empire really was as uber powerful as you and some people may claim, then why were they so hesitant to invade?
It's a fact that the Ancient Sith ships were superior to the Republic ships. It can be seen in KotoR cutscenes and somebody has quoted it in this thread.
What cutscenes show this?
Also, being superior to 5000 BBY Republic ships doesn't mean being superior to YV ships.
Again: The Sith Empire did never lose a direct confrontation. They were about to win all battles, before Sadow was disturbed which caused the "innumerable" illusional troops the Sith waged war with to vanish. That's like proclaiming the Rebel Alliance must be military stronger than the Galactic Empire because they won the war. It doesn't make sense.
It seems as though without Sadow, the sith empire can't seem to fight. The YV could blow up his meditation sphere, or distract him.
How so? Go and read the comics before you start arguing.
Good god. I already explained why this doesn't work. You can't take two civilizations and then proclaim that they develop equal in terms of technology. According to the opening credits, Star Wars happens "a long time ago in a Galaxy far away". Using your standards, we must be ahead of the SW universe in terms of technical development, because they lived "a long time ago". Obviously that isn't the case. Staying within the SW universe: Centerpoint Station was 100,000 years old, as far as I remember, and it was capable of moving planets through Hyperspace. The Star Forge was about 40,000 years old and it still belongs to the most advanced technology seen in the SW universe, before it's destruction and even by standards of the "current" SW universe.
The sith empire was not thousands of years ahead of the Republic or else they would have won the war regardless of whether or not they had Sadow's aid.
Then we still have the fact that single Sith weapons (Dark Reaper, Sadow's Corsair) were far ahead of their time. The Dark Reaper was pretty much unstoppable, even with PT era technology and the Galactic Empire didn't develop anything close to the destructive abilities of the Corsair's weapon until 10 ABY (Sun Crusher).
See above.
Well apparently the dark reaper didn't end up working that well for the sith.
Yes. I've mentioned it multiple times now. It's pretty much the only thing that compares to the weapon of Sadow's ship. Yet, as you may know, Kyp Durron destroyed the Sun Crusher and there weren't any plans left to build a new one.
My point is that NJO era SW has the technology to create star system destroying superweapons.
Yes. Which was pretty much the entirety of their armies and the entirety of their fleets that perished on and above Coruscant. Notice how the GA force with their "inferior technology" managed to "just" lose 5 million soldiers in that battle. Which doesn't really matter, provided that the Sith Empire has "innumerable" forces as long as Sadow keeps the illusions up.
"inferior technology"? When did I ever state that the GA had inferior technology compared to the Vong?
The GA and allies forces lost over 300 capital ships. That's quite a bit.
Both wrong.
How so?
Again: Sadow could summon tangible illusions again and again and again. So you destroy one ship (if that can even be done) and you have a new one popping up right again.
Can Sadow create these illusions on multiple battles lightyears apart while he himself is under attack?
The Sith were an entire race of force users. So yes. Every single one of them is a force user. The least powerful of them (Massassi) can guide projectile weapons with the force and enhance their own combat abilities (as seen in "Dark Lords of the Sith" for example). And the most powerful of them are the Sith Lords. In between you have more or less powerful force users (Kissai = Priests).
Ok then. Thanks.
They attacked a Galaxy that was completely undermilitarized, as Gideon has already pointed out and that was led by people not willing to act according to the Imperial standard policy of pretty much leaving nothing but scorched earth behind. They wouldn't blow up a star-system to gain some military advantage - the Sith would.
And the Sith are a society that is based on fighting as much as the Yuuzhan Vong are.
The Galaxy, while undermilitarized, was still far superior technologically than the Galaxy circa 5000 BBY.
The actual numbers don't matter. The illusions Sadow conjured were said to increase the numbers of the ground troops a thousandfold. The same was apparently the case with the ships. So even if the Sith Empire had just one million Massassi (which would be a very low estimation, provided that Kun had several 10,000s alone 1,000 years later and the fact that the Sith ruled more than a 100 planets), that would be a fighting force of one billion soldiers with illusions already.
100 planets is actually very little compared to, say, the Republic circa the Clone Wars, which consisted of about a million worlds. It can be estimated that the GA had at least a majority of that, since they controlled more than the Imperial Remnant as of the YV invasion.
And the average Massassi couldn't use force lightning (as far as I know). They were still unnaturally strong fighters that could perform "low" force feats (e.g. use telekinesis to guide projectiles like lanvarok discs).
Ok then. Thanks.
Those things are called lanvaroks and can actually launch discs that the Massassi can guide using the force. After the disc is fired, the weapon is wielded like a giant axe pretty much. I don't see how this matters, given that the Vong's main weaponary are amphistaffs.
And what defense will these Massassi have against long ranged artillery or snipers (if the YV have the latter)?
And still wouldn't matter considering the (illusional) numbers of the Sith Empire and the gimmics of the Sith Lords. Just for the fun a little example of the latter:
Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger: A gauntlet crafted by Ludo Kressh for his son, repelling anything from the wearer that doesn't have the consent of the wearer to touch him. It even offers protection against lightsaber strikes and explosions (orbital bombardment). Just imagine a Sith Lord wearing that thing and running through the Vong. He would be pretty much unstoppable.
I highly doubt that Sadow could create illusions on all 100 worlds, which were probably many lightyears apart.
The YV caused hundreds of trillions of casualties. It can be estimated that the YV army numbered in at least the hundreds of billions, if not trillions or even tens or hundreds of trillions. It would not be impossible for their army to number in the quadrillions. The sith empire apparently only had around 100 worlds. The YV could send billions against each world at once and still have troops to spare. What is Sadow going to do about that? Conjure up a billion illusions in each world?
The entire sith empire popluation couldn't be more than AT THE MOST maybe 100 trillion. Coruscant, implied to be the most populated planet in SW by the PT with 1 trillion recorded civilians and an estimated trillion or so more, is stated and shown to be very crowded, even with extremely high skyscrapers. Assuming that the sith empire planets aren't too much bigger than the size of Earth, which would be needed to ensure that the civilians can survive the gravitational forces, even if each world of the sith empire were as populated as Coruscant (which would be ridiculous), the empire would still only have a hundred or so trillion. The YV war caused more CASUALTIES than that, and the number of casualties caused during a war are almost always a very small percentile of the total population.
And not all of that population would consist of military personel. Based on these calculations, the sith empire's military would only number in the billions, which, compared to a galactic army of trillions or potentially trillions, is small.
Sorry for the triple post.
Another thing to consider is that the YV would have significantly more advanced hyperdrive technology. By the beginning of the CW class 3 hyperdrives were rare, but by the YV war class 0.4 (the lower the hyperdrive class, the faster in most scales) ships were possible, and class 1 and 2 hyperdrives were common among capital ships. With this, the YV fleets could move far faster than the sith empire fleets.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He alluded to something that may or may not resemble the star forge, that is ALL. Your interpretation is called REACHING.
No, DS. It would be "reaching" if I had based my argument upon that point, which I clearly didn't do. That aside: So we've moved from "Nai made things up" to "Nai may be right" now? Congratulations.
Aside from Luke's incredible instakill, you'll have to show me the direct quote because I'm not familiar with it.I'm not really sure any of those techniques would work against the Vong. Hell, lightning for instance would just curve around them. It's as if they were wearing ysalamiri.
Really?
In a motion so fast Jaina barely saw it, the warrior sat up and flicked his coufee at her throat. She could have dodged or blocked with her lightsaber, but she did not. Instead, with the fierce energy crackling inside her, she used her free hand to bat the weapon aside, then raised her hand toward her attacker and released the dark power inside. A fork of lightning crackled into existence a few centimeters beyond her glove tips, then blasted a hole through the Yuuzhan Vong's chest and hurled him onto the rubble pile smoking and motionless. (Star by Star, Chapter 49)
Emphasis mine. If Jaina can kill a Vong with force lightning, I guess individuals that spent centuries studying the Dark Side could do the job, too.
Anakin rose and threw the most powerful telekinetic blast he
could at the group of Yuuzhan Vong. If they had been any other species, it would have pasted them to the wall. Instead, two fell and the other three staggered as if in a high wind. (Edge of Victory II: Rebirth, Chapter 39)
Telekinesis does affect Yuuzhan Vong but they have some immunity to it, apparently, causing the TK being less effective. However...there are other methods to deal with them using the force:
He broke off suddenly and staggered. His aide caught him. Nen Yim was still wondering what had happened when she suddenly felt something pressing her entire body, as if she were deep under water. Her lungs labored to draw the syrupy air and her pulse hammered.
Through flashes of blue and black, she saw that Mez_han Kwaad and Yal Phaath's aide were also struggling to breathe.
The pain increased sharply. Soon her eyeballs would collapse, then her heart. Striving for calm, she spun her failing gaze around the room.
The young Jeedai stood at the side of the vivarium, hands pressed against the transparent membrane. Her green eyes blazed and her teeth were drawn back from her lips in a rictus of fury. Nen Yim saw murder there, and suddenly understood.
[...]
The Jeedai screamed and pounded on the membrane, and for an instant the pressure actually increased, crushing so hard that Nen Yim couldn't breathe at all. Then, more suddenly than it had come, the uncanny pressure relented, and her lungs jerked in a much-needed breath. (Edge of Victory I: Conquest, Chapter 18)
If Tahiri Veila while imprisoned (and "shaped"😉 by the Yuuzhan Vong, is capable of force crushing them, I doubt that Ancient Sith Lords would have much trouble doing the same, especially provided that Force Crush is an Ancient Sith signature move.
There's nothing to counter Nai. Your argument consists of wild assertions, nothing more.
Assertions, DS?
Argument #1: The Sith have potentially infinite ground troops and ships utilizing Sadow's illusions. Given that this is exactly what happens in the comics, this isn't an assertion, but a fact. That those can only be countered by interrupting Sadow's concentration (which would require to find him first) is likewise a fact.
Argument #2: The Ancient Sith have weapons that rival (or outclass) modern age technology. Given that the Dark Reaper was unstoppable by PT era tech and the weapon installed on Sadow's flagship is only rivaled by the Sun Crusher (likewise modern day SW tech), this again isn't an "assertion" but a fact.
Argument #3: Sith Alchemy and Sith Magic are a well of fairytale equipment, potentially generating gimmics that could be considered a deus ex machina. Again a fact, provided such tools as Sith amulets, Ragnos sceptre or the above mentioned gauntlet.
Argument #4: The force aided battle prowess of the Ancient Sith Lords coupled with their gimmics fieled under #3 is a potentially deadly mixture even threatening larged Vong forces, much like the cooperation of Luke and his niece and nephew. Again a fact, unless you want to argue that the Ancient Sith Lords are somehow weaklings.
Nothing to counter and only assertions, DS? And don't get me wrong: Utilizing only conventional warfare, the Vong would probably defeat - if not outright curbstomp - the Ancient Sith Empire. But adding / utilizing their unconventional means, the Ancient Sith would have a decent shot against the Vong.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
A single betrayal destroyed their entire empire?
I would encourage you (and everybody else) to read the comics:
The first betrayal by Gav (attacking Sadow) leads to Sadow dropping his illusions, which previously increased the Sith forces a thousandfold. So this apparently did cost the Sith 99,99 % of their fighting force. The second betrayal by Gav (warning the Republic Fleet) hindered a trap by Sadow from working, that would otherwise have destroyed the entire fleet pursuing him. The third betrayal by Kressh (proclaiming himself Dark Lord) let to the remaing forces of Sadow being greeted with a fleet attacking them when they made it back to Sith space. The comibined forces (or even Sadow's fleet alone) could have had a chance against the Republic forces following them.
So you have three betrayals causing the fall of the Sith Empire. Notice how one (Vader killing Sidious) brought the Galactic Empire down.
From what I read on Wookieepedia Ragnos was scared of invading the Republic.
No. He just didn't see any point in expanding the Empire further as all Lords already lived in wealth, each of them controlling dozens of worlds. Why risk to conquer other worlds if you have anything you desire already. They simply assumed that the Jedi - like themselves - grew stronger over the last 2,000 years, which apparently didn't happen, as Sadow's later attack did show.
Why didn't this dark reaper device end the war?
Apparently it wasn't used during the Great Hyperspace War, maybe because it was controlled by Kressh's faction of the Sith Empire.
And what stops the Vong from doing the same to the sith, who only ruled a hundred or so worlds?
How about not knowing the location of the Sith worlds and, you know, the Sith themselves.
That is a somewhat separate debate, but one that you would be in a severe disadvantage. Do you really think that some random ancient sith could stand a chance against NJO+ Luke?
That wasn't the point and you know it pretty damn well. And I doubt that Jacen, Jaina and Luke could defeat the 20 Sith Lords, as you happily claimed.
It's true. 9 > 8 > 7. A nuclear bomb of 2 megatons causes a bigger bang then a nuclear bomb of 1 megaton which causes a bigger bang than a nuclear bomb of 500 kilotons.
And it's still not an argument. Got that now?
And if the sith empire really was as uber powerful as you and some people may claim, then why were they so hesitant to invade?
See above.
What cutscenes show this?Also, being superior to 5000 BBY Republic ships doesn't mean being superior to YV ships.
Battle for the Star Forge in KotoR, and 3950 BBY not 5000.
It seems as though without Sadow, the sith empire can't seem to fight. The YV could blow up his meditation sphere, or distract him.
Yes. After spending hundreds of years searching for it...
The sith empire was not thousands of years ahead of the Republic or else they would have won the war regardless of whether or not they had Sadow's aid.
Stop arguing in circles and stop arguing against the facts. Good god. The Sith were ahead of the Republic in certain fields (superweapons). That aside: According to your logic, the Galactic Empire was less powerful than the Rebel Alliance because otherwise they should have won with or without Sidious' aid? Obviously not.
Well apparently the dark reaper didn't end up working that well for the sith.
See above. Apparently it wasn't used during the Great Hyperspace War but just constructed during that time.
My point is that NJO era SW has the technology to create star system destroying superweapons.
Wonderful. So has the Sith Empire. I've posted multiple scans of Sadow actually using said technology. And technically spoken, the NJO era doesn't have the technology, because they pratically destroyed it 20 years earlier...
Can Sadow create these illusions on multiple battles lightyears apart while he himself is under attack?
Not while he's under attack - but he won't be under attack.
And he has created them on multiple locations simultaneously that were both lightyears away from him and from eachother...
The Galaxy, while undermilitarized, was still far superior technologically than the Galaxy circa 5000 BBY.
There is nothing like "the Galaxy" when it comes to technological advantage. ANd please proof your point. Far superior? I could swear they are still using the same weapons, the same armor and overall the same technology that they did use 5,000 years ago. :rollyes:
100 planets is actually very little compared to, say, the Republic circa the Clone Wars, which consisted of about a million worlds. It can be estimated that the GA had at least a majority of that, since they controlled more than the Imperial Remnant as of the YV invasion.
I don't know where the "100 planets" come from. The TOTJ era comics have 21 Sith Lords (at the very least) with each of them controlling (at the very least) "a dozen" (=12) planets. That would be 252 planets alone...
And yes. The Republic had more planets. So what? The Republic military has always been laughable. Hence it was almost overrun by Sadow, Revan, the Sith Triumvirate, the Sith Emperor, the Brotherhood of Darkness and finally the CIS. The Galactic Empire was the only military that actually fielded enough ships / troops / superweapons to really "control" a Galaxy.
And what defense will these Massassi have against long ranged artillery or snipers (if the YV have the latter)?
The Vong fight with amphistaffs, which are also combined melee and (short) ranged weapons. No snipers and no "real" artilery. Not that it would matter. The Sith have some nice beasts to utilize and - as long as Sadow is up - an innumberable supply of troops.
I highly doubt that Sadow could create illusions on all 100 worlds, which were probably many lightyears apart.
Why would he be in need to do that? You're again assuming that the Vong invade the Sith Empire. I don't see where the thread-started has defined such a scenario. And even if that should be the case, the Vong would have to attack 100 worlds simultaneously, which is almost impossible.
The YV caused hundreds of trillions of casualties. It can be estimated that the YV army numbered in at least the hundreds of billions, if not trillions or even tens or hundreds of trillions. It would not be impossible for their army to number in the quadrillions. The sith empire apparently only had around 100 worlds. The YV could send billions against each world at once and still have troops to spare. What is Sadow going to do about that? Conjure up a billion illusions in each world?
Unless you proof the factual strength of the Vong, I won't buy into your "billions upon billions" numbers. A great portion of the forces was present and destroyed during the Second Battle of Coruscant and that piled up to a number of 100 millions. Where are you taking the "billions from" or the "quadrilions". Latter would be the number of scentient beings in the entire SW Galaxy. That's ridiculous.
Again: The Vong fleet would need to dwarf that of the Galactic Empire in order to even transport such a population and, as we know, that wasn't the case. So? You are obviously overestimating the numerical strength of the Vong by far.
And not all of that population would consist of military personel. Based on these calculations, the sith empire's military would only number in the billions, which, compared to a galactic army of trillions or potentially trillions, is small.
🙄
Another thing to consider is that the YV would have significantly more advanced hyperdrive technology. By the beginning of the CW class 3 hyperdrives were rare, but by the YV war class 0.4 (the lower the hyperdrive class, the faster in most scales) ships were possible, and class 1 and 2 hyperdrives were common among capital ships. With this, the YV fleets could move far faster than the sith empire fleets.
Right. Firstly: Some YV ship have no working hyperdrive at all. The Worldship seem to have a class 4 hyperdrive, and we don't even know what class the Sith utilized. That aside: Assuming the scenario you presented above (YV invading Sith Space) an advantage would boil down to seconds / minutes because of the (relative) short distances to be crossed.
I'm going to give a numbered list of points responding to your important arguments.
1. Of the betrayals you listed, all but one involved simply foiling some amp that Sadow had or a trap. If Sadow's forces really were technologically superior and, I would suppose in order to justify your claims of the ancient sith empire competing with the YV numerically, numerically superior as well, the ancient sith empire would have won even without its illusions, but it lost without them.
2. I find it hard to believe that Ragnos would not want to invade the Republic, given how greedy, ambitious and arrogant sith in Star Wars almost always are.
3. If they didn't use the dark reaper during that war, why would they use it during this hypothetical war?
4. It wouldn't be that difficult to find the location of the sith planets by getting information from someone or accessing the holonet (if the ancient sith empire had that).
5. NJO+ Luke, Jaina and Jacen would quite easily beat 20 average sith. Sidious pwned 3 high level Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds, and one thing that we do agree on is that Luke > Sidious (you seem to think that Luke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidious). Luke > Sidious, famous and high level Jedi Masters > run of the mill, no name sith lords and notice that Sidious beat those Jedi in a few seconds. And Luke would we using a battle meld in this case. 20 sith lords couldn't take down thousands of YV warriors. Luke and Ben, despite not having eaten or drunken for over a week or even 3 or so weeks (a lack of water and likely food for that long would kill any human I know), took down 15 (I think it was 15, or around 15) sith who had the element of surprise.
6. It would not take hundreds of years for the Vong to search for the sith meditation sphere (well, if they did simply by randomly roaming the galaxy it might). It did not take hundreds of years for the NJO to track down Caedus multiple times.
7. You say that the sith were ahead of the Republic in certain fields, which I agree with. Are they ahead in ship/weapons/armor/medical/hyperdrive/etc. technology as well?
8. Your claim was that the ancient sith empire had superior (or maybe comparable) technology compared to the YV and listed their star system destroying superweapons as an example. I was refuting this.
9. I doubt that Sadow could, even if not under attack, create sufficient illusions on 100 different worlds to stop an all out invasion. Oh, and planet busting/severely planet damaging superweapons.
10. The galaxy as of the YV invasion used similar technology, but more advanced versions of them. In FOTJ: Allies there are several comments as to how one of Lando's ships, which is a few hundred years old, was so primitive by the time they were talking about it.
11. You're the one that stated that the ancient sith empire had 100 planets.
12. The Vong caused hundreds of trillions of casualties. Historically the number of casualties (including civilian casualties) in a war is almost always (POSSIBLE exceptions being complete annihilation of a civilization, which the YV war was not) a very small proportion of the total number of combatants. Hundreds of millions of YV died in the Battle of Coruscant alone, putting the total number of YV in the billions at least.
13. Of course some ships wouldn't have hyperdrives or very fast ones if they aren't designed for that.
Here's the YV plan:
The YV target all 100 ancient sith empire planets at once. As I described in one of my posts, the sith numbers would have to be low compared to that of the YV in order to have fitted in 100 planets that were close enough to the size of Earth to be livable.
They attack using planet busting (or weapons that can render planets uninhabitable) superweapons, thus effectively destroying the ancient sith empire.
If the sith retaliate with their own superweapons, they would be at a disadvantage. In this thread the YV are invading, and if their planets are somehow in this war as well, they numbered far more than 100 and therefore the sith would have to destroy far more worlds than the Vong would, while the sith would also be using inferior hyperdrive technology.
I'm not trying to bash anyone, but why does Nai suddenly without warning stop debating? And "oh your argument wasn't worth responding to" is one of the oldest tricks in the book and not true since Nai suddenly stops.
I get angry when people can't admit that they're wrong when they actually are (I have, and a few others such as TJ have as well). If you admit defeat, that is not at all a problem, but to not admit than you have lost (I do not see why you keep bragging about 100 worlds but when I show you the 1000000 world figure for thr Republic you lie and pretend that you did not claim that) when you really have is acting like a 5 year old.
Several billion YV attack each sith planet, each of which I proved in some previous threads had to have had a relatively small number of troops.
Anybody else please do not get into this; you might not understand how annoying it is to get insulted by someone only for them to stop debating and refuse to apologize when you out debate them.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Nai suddenly stops debating because he has a life. He's like a weekly/bi-weekly poster.
No, his timing is too suspicious. He leaves as soon as his argument is getting defeated. He's also hypocritical, because he blames Dr. B for doing this to him.
The YV would have to have an army of at least tens or hundreds of billions, maybe even in the trillions or quadrillions. I have explained why before.
The sith empire couldn't even have had a total population over a few trillion. I have explained why before.
Therefore, the YV could invade each of the sith empire's 100 planets each with troops ranging from the hundreds of millions to tens of billions. Naga Sadow will not be able to generate illusions on 100 planets at once. The sith empire defense forces will be horribly outnumbered and outmatched by the numerically and technologically superior YV space and ground troops.
But that isn't really necessary. The YV could simply launch superweapons at each of the 100 planets. If the sith try and counter this, they'll have to destroy far more than 100 planets, meaning that the YV will destroy the sith before the sith get to destroy the YV.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No, his timing is too suspicious. He leaves as soon as his argument is getting defeated. He's also hypocritical, because he blames Dr. B for doing this to him.
Actually, Blax was right: I didn't have the necessary freetime to continue this during the last week because of "having a life", which ocassionally keeps me busy enough not to get bored, which is the only reason for me to actually come here. That aside: Where did you defeat my argument?
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. Of the betrayals you listed, all but one involved simply foiling some amp that Sadow had or a trap. If Sadow's forces really were technologically superior and, I would suppose in order to justify your claims of the ancient sith empire competing with the YV numerically, numerically superior as well, the ancient sith empire would have won even without its illusions, but it lost without them.
Somehow I think you don't get what happened. If Sadow's illusions multiplied the Sith forces a thousandfold, the betrayal took 99,9% of his troops away. The next took away a comeback and finally, the entire governing body of the Sith Empire was either wiped out or forced to retreat, with the actual enemy appearing in the - now undefended - heart of the Empire.
That aside you don't take any psychology into consideration. The Galactic Empire fell apart when the Emperor and the second in command were killed in the Battle of Endor, despite being far superior to the Rebel Alliance. Similar situation, similar outcome.
2. I find it hard to believe that Ragnos would not want to invade the Republic, given how greedy, ambitious and arrogant sith in Star Wars almost always are.
I don't care what you find hard to believe. Read the comics and stay with the facts instead of attempting to argue out of ignorance.
3. If they didn't use the dark reaper during that war, why would they use it during this hypothetical war?
Because they would be united and fighting an enemy invading their own Empire.
4. It wouldn't be that difficult to find the location of the sith planets by getting information from someone or accessing the holonet (if the ancient sith empire had that).
Again, you're arguing against the facts. Even Sidious had to search ancient sources to find the location of certain Sith worlds and the man had more resources at his disposal than anybody else. It's not that the location of the Sith worlds was common knowledge...
5. NJO+ Luke, Jaina and Jacen would quite easily beat 20 average sith. [...] 20 sith lords couldn't take down thousands of YV warriors. Luke and Ben, despite not having eaten or drunken for over a week or even 3 or so weeks (a lack of water and likely food for that long would kill any human I know), took down 15 (I think it was 15, or around 15) sith who had the element of surprise.
Care to explain how you are able to read "average Sith" when I'm typing "Ancient Sith Lords"? Care to explain how the Tribe of the Sith apprentices are even remotely compareable to people that studied the Dark Side and Sith Magic for centuries? Apparently you have no idea what the Ancient Sith are capable of. Again, I can only advice you to check the source material instead of arguing out of ignorance.
6. It would not take hundreds of years for the Vong to search for the sith meditation sphere (well, if they did simply by randomly roaming the galaxy it might). It did not take hundreds of years for the NJO to track down Caedus multiple times.
Did you, by chance, miss the fact that the Vong don't have force users capable of locating other force users - in contrast to the NJO? That aside: The Meditation Sphere is a mobile ship, semi-sentient and the Vong would need to search it somewhere in Sith space, without even knowing the extend of the Sith space nor that they actually need to search for the sphere.
7. You say that the sith were ahead of the Republic in certain fields, which I agree with. Are they ahead in ship/weapons/armor/medical/hyperdrive/etc. technology as well?
This is complete speculation. We know that their ships were superior to Republic ships constructed 1,500 years later. We also know that force enhanced technology can yield results that "normal" invention isn't capable to offer. For example the Aing-Ti-Monks ability to "teleport" their ships through the Galaxy. The Sith, however, do have the means to keep up with armor / weapons thanks to Sith Alchemy.
8. Your claim was that the ancient sith empire had superior (or maybe comparable) technology compared to the YV and listed their star system destroying superweapons as an example. I was refuting this.
You were refuting facts?
Let's be honest: You have no idea, how the technology compares to that of the Vong, neither do I. Who cares? This was never part of my original argument which, much to your dismay, isn't based on "conventional warfare". So I don't really get why everything you say is aimed at that topic. Desperation?
9. I doubt that Sadow could, even if not under attack, create sufficient illusions on 100 different worlds to stop an all out invasion. Oh, and planet busting/severely planet damaging superweapons.
Neither will he be attacked, nor will all planets of the Empire be attacked simultaneously. Why? The Vong don't have his location, don't know that he even exists, don't have the locations of the Sith worlds and don't have the forces to attack them all at once.
10. The galaxy as of the YV invasion used similar technology, but more advanced versions of them. In FOTJ: Allies there are several comments as to how one of Lando's ships, which is a few hundred years old, was so primitive by the time they were talking about it.
And you're arguing against the facts once again. I told you before that it doesn't make sense to compare the technology of two different cultures evolving seperated from each other. Centerpoint Station is 100,000 years old and still was the most effective weapon used against the Vong. The Vong are utilizing technology that is a 1,000 years old and still compares to that of the Republic. The Sith had weapons that were totally superior to anything but the Sun Crusher, 5,000 years before the latter was invented. That aside you're once more aiming at conventional warfare here, ignoring the entire purpose of my argument.
11. You're the one that stated that the ancient sith empire had 100 planets.
No. I'm the one that introduced a quote saying it had "well over a hundred planets"...
12. The Vong caused hundreds of trillions of casualties. Historically the number of casualties (including civilian casualties) in a war is almost always (POSSIBLE exceptions being complete annihilation of a civilization, which the YV war was not) a very small proportion of the total number of combatants. Hundreds of millions of YV died in the Battle of Coruscant alone, putting the total number of YV in the billions at least.
Again: Arguing out of ignorance.
The invasion of the YV was coined by genocidal tactics like destroying / terraforming planets and killing all inhabitants. Thusly 1/3 of the Galactic population was killed, which is hardly "a very small proportion of the number of combatants", unless you want to assume that there were more combatants than actual inhabitants of the Galaxy. And stop pulling conclusions out of nowhere. The Battle of Coruscant saw the amassed invasion force of the YV (minus what they had lost before) and many of the warriors did commit suicide, after the death of Shimra. So how does it follow from there that the YV had "billions" of troops?
The YV target all 100 ancient sith empire planets at once. As I described in one of my posts, the sith numbers would have to be low compared to that of the YV in order to have fitted in 100 planets that were close enough to the size of Earth to be livable.They attack using planet busting (or weapons that can render planets uninhabitable) superweapons, thus effectively destroying the ancient sith empire.
If the sith retaliate with their own superweapons, they would be at a disadvantage. In this thread the YV are invading, and if their planets are somehow in this war as well, they numbered far more than 100 and therefore the sith would have to destroy far more worlds than the Vong would, while the sith would also be using inferior hyperdrive technology.
The YV neither have the information nor the forces to attack all Sith planets. Even if they could, Sadow would conjure illusional fleets and armies to take it up with them, which would still result in the YV losing by attrition sooner or later.
The alternative: The Vong show up in Sith space and the Sith Lords detonate the next star to wipe the entire invasion fleet out with a single attack. They could also attack the Vong with illusional fleets, outnumbering them totally and send some of the most powerful Dark Side users in history of the SW universe in for personal confrontation. This is not even mentioning the monsters and other nice gimmics created via Sith Alchemy, with the latter being force enhanced version of plot devices that you can wear as jewelry, sometimes able to wipe out entire armies on their own in the hands of a halfway decent force user. Hell. What stops them from thought-bombing the Vong?
In terms of conventional warfare, the Vong would most likely win, maybe even curbstomp the Sith. Adding the Siths abilities to manipulate the force, and they have a decent shot to take down the Vong with their "unnatural" abilities.