Bastard!! manga review

Started by Narcissus4 pages
Originally posted by NemeBro
I was that insolent white boy, Dark-Jaxx/God-Eneru.

Oh hey, Dark-Jaxx! I remember you. I was wondering what had happened to you. Yeah, you should come back. There is quite a bit of drama you've missed out on since you left.

Originally posted by Astner
Judging by the prolonged response you've provided thus far and the fact that four member registered just so they could respond is evidence enough to dismiss this accusation.

I'm merely entertaining myself, and the others haven't even been back.

The reason for why you can't go into a more "in-depth argument" isn't because you don't care. It's because you haven't read the manga. You said it yourself, in this very post.

Not exactly. There were aspects of you method of reviewing that I took issue with, and not the review itself. As I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but people can disagree with an opinion based upon said opinion's foundations.

In other words your defending a position out of bias. It's not that you dissagree with the review, it's that you dissagree with me and my right to exercise my free speach. I don't know if it's an unsettled dispute you couldn't drop but I see no point in entertaining your pitiful sharade. Leave this thread to people who have read the manga.

Appeal to motive fallacy: a pattern of argument which consists in challenging a thesis by calling into question the motives of its proposer.

By saying I am biased, you are guilty of this fallacy.

And I never pretended to have read it. Besides, it was your methods that I disagreed with.

Once again, it's a review not an opinion post. I didn't write "the art isn't to my taste" I wrote (paraphrasing) "the art is horrible and here is why" and provided pictures compelling people to make their own opinions of the art.

You posted reasoning for why you believe the artwork to be poor. Others my find themselves liking it. While better than saying "The art is terrible" it is still an opinion.

You was addressing the work, not me in person, more importantly you didn't address my work in specific but the general process of reviewing.

I read and I quote:

If anything that's a selfish statement of ignorance, considering that it's a important facet of the media industry.

If you really need everything spoon fed to you, then sure. When I wrote that statement, I had you in mind. But if you can not utilize something as simple as common sense, then I'll try to be more specific for you in the future.

Another contradiction (though readily pointed out) if the review didn't matter to them they wouldn't respond, yet alone register and I wouldn't call it "disagreement with my reasoning" but rather trolling. You need to know what you're dissagreeing with to have a credible opinion. Two of the three first comments contained the segment tl;dr--too long didn't read--nullifying their credability.

They heard about your review, came and expressed their opinions in one form or another, and then left. That's is all. They found it more entertaining than anything. But no one took your review seriously. That is what I;ve been getting at.

Of course. But I expect them to understand or at the very least read what I "say and do".

And some did. And those who did clearly disagreed with you and did not take your review seriously.

Well it's not as much as much the manga as the fans praise and exalt this piece of garbage to others. Let me rephrase that, it's an interaction between the two, the manga is extremely overrated based off its lack and void of quality.

Prehaps. Prehaps not. As I said, I am not one to judge the actual work itself, and you are not the first person to give it a negative review. One of my friends on NF also disliked the manga, but he at least aknowledged in his own review that it was his personal opinion that the manga wasn't good, rather than going on a rant about how he was right and no one else should bother reading the manga.

Like I said, I have been talking about the review you gave, and not the manga.

What you're addressing is the typical format of a review, what you're writing is nonsense.

Because, as I previously stated, go more in-depth would get neither of us anywhere. And no it isn't

Unintentionally referring to when I left.

Oh yes. If there was the slightest possibility that we do miss something about you, Astner, it was the numerous opportunities to destroy you. But even that was growing stale.

Just like the thread was intended for. Another success then I take it?

After seeing you ridiculed by a forum regular here, meaning that you have been mocked in at least 3 different places I've seen now (not to mention you're awful spelling and grammar)? Yes. You deserve some applause.

Originally posted by Narcissus
Not exactly. There were aspects of you method of reviewing that I took issue with, and not the review itself.

And with "aspects" you are of course referring to the five worded summary.

Originally posted by Narcissus
[b]Appeal to motive fallacy: a pattern of argument which consists in challenging a thesis by calling into question the motives of its proposer.

By saying I am biased, you are guilty of this fallacy.[/b]


Wrong. In case you didn't understand the fundamental error in your accusation I underlined it. What I did was question your reason, I wasn't using it as a argument and therein lies the problem. I'm fully able to question your motives. It's first when I use them as a argument for why you would be wrong I'm committing a logical fallacy. That's the nature of logical fallacies; to substitute arguments with a unrelated response.

Originally posted by Narcissus
And I never pretended to have read it. Besides, it was your methods that I disagreed with.

And I'm allowing you to hold that opinion, after all that all it is an opinion. Case closed.

Originally posted by Narcissus
You posted reasoning for why you believe the artwork to be poor. Others my find themselves liking it. While better than saying "The art is terrible" it is still an opinion.

A universal opinion. There is no such thing as absolute fact when it comes to art. You might consider Stephenie Meyers to be the the most talanted and skillful writer of all time, but that isn't necessarily the general consensus. I further brought up pictures compelling people to make their own opinions rather than blindly following my like you imply.

Originally posted by Narcissus
If you really need everything spoon fed to you, then sure. When I wrote that statement, I had you in mind. But if you can not utilize something as simple as common sense, then I'll try to be more specific for you in the future.

I'm sorry for thinking that you meant what you actually wrote and thank you; you do in fact need to improve on your writing.

Originally posted by Narcissus
They heard about your review, came and expressed their opinions in one form or another, and then left. That's is all. They found it more entertaining than anything. But no one took your review seriously. That is what I;ve been getting at.

To quote my first response:

Originally posted by Astner
This thread wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by Narcissus
And some did. And those who did clearly disagreed with you and did not take your review seriously.

Of course not, they didn't read it.

Originally posted by Narcissus
Oh yes. If there was the slightest possibility that we do miss something about you, Astner, it was the numerous opportunities to destroy you. But even that was growing stale.

Destroying me, yes. Personally I don't consider posting a response I didn't find the need to acknowledge to be equivallent to destroy. If I recall correctly I even blocked you because your misused of logical fallacies lack of understanding for reason.

Destroying would be something closer to what I accomplished in Red's thread which where he attempted to make a simple calculation made a number of errors which I pointed out. After a number of fallacies and insults he finally acknowledge me of being correct and posts my calulation in his first post.

Originally posted by Narcissus
After seeing you ridiculed by a forum regular here, meaning that you have been mocked in at least 3 different places I've seen now (not to mention you're awful spelling and grammar)? Yes. You deserve some applause.

Being disliked isn't the same as being mocked. Then again, I don't cherish my reputation as well as you on boards dedicated to fiction. Also, I currently don't have spellcheck on and don't proofread my replies before posting them--I don't think you're worth that kind of attention--and it's generally considered rare to write a A4 without any grammatical or spelling errors, so there you have it.

Greatest thread ever.

Originally posted by Astner I make a fool of myself when I make a programming mistake in Java, Mathematica or MATLAB in front of professors and friends not when I criticize a series for its shortcommings in front of its fans. [/B]

Because there's absolutely nothing foolish about claiming someone used photoshop before it even existed, right? 😆

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Because there's absolutely nothing foolish about claiming someone used photoshop before it even existed, right? 😆

Photoshop was first released februari 1990, and there existed photo-editing software long before that. The graphically altered pictures didn't come before the 10th volume or so which was originally published a long after Photoshop was released considering that Hagiwara have relased 26 volumes in 22 years, that's about a volume per year.

It takes no genius to see that the tiger in the background wasn't drawn in the same style as Gara or even with the same equipment. If the author could draw those backgrounds he wouldn't fail so badly in terms of proportions in the foreground. Even as late as in volume 16 he's unable to draw legs proportionally correct.

If you're telling me that Mr. Hagiwara didn't have access to Photoshop in 1997 when his backgrounds started to look as if they were taken by photo then prove it. We know that the later volumes of Bastard!! were graphically altered.

Astner,

Thank you very much for posting your review. I found it insightful and mildly humorous. I have NOOOOOO idea why the **** people got their panties in a wad over such a little thing, man.

Like I said in the other thread we argued for pages in: you're not that bad, you just need to not be so condescending and learn how to take criticism.

However, I found NO fault in your opening post, for your own thread. Do all of you REALLY like that manga this much? It looks absolutely horrible.

Please, someone convince me of why I should read and/or buy this manga? Astner seems to be spot on, after having read most of the posts in here.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Astner,

Thank you very much for posting your review. I found it insightful and mildly humorous.


Thank you.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have NOOOOOO idea why the **** people got their panties in a wad over such a little thing, man.

Especially considering the fact that the one who decided to make most fuss even openly admitted to not have read the manga.

Originally posted by Narcissus
I have not read the manga

Originally posted by dadudemon
Like I said in the other thread we argued for pages in: you're not that bad, you just need to not be so condescending and learn how to take criticism.

Going by the amount of trolling in the opening page, I'd say that I've taken the criticism pretty well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Please, someone convince me of why I should read and/or buy this manga? Astner seems to be spot on, after having read most of the posts in here.

Personally I think my opening post covered the manga pretty well. The only remaining path is to glance through the Bastard!! fan translation on the Internet (unless you want to commit my mistake and spend money on it) although I doubt you'll get through the first volume.

Considering he rereleased the early volumes specifically so he could add computer - enhanced art, you're full of crap.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Considering he rereleased the early volumes specifically so he could add computer - enhanced art, you're full of crap.

If you can provide great artwork by Hagiwara prior to his use of graphic-alterating programs then I concede. But judging by the poor character design (even in later volumes) I'm inclined to believe othewise.

To be honest I do not understand why everyone else is apparently so angry.

I personally love Bastard!! (What I have been able to read of it anyway), and do not really care if Astner didn't like it. 😐

Originally posted by Astner
If you can provide great artwork by Hagiwara prior to his use of graphic-alterating programs then I concede. But judging by the poor character design (even in later volumes) I'm inclined to believe othewise.

Define "great artwork". You seem to think Kishimoto is a good artist, so obviously your taste is ****ed up.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Define "great artwork".

Artwork with proper proportions, shadowing and nifty details. Artwork that the majority would consider to be above average for an artist. If you're insecure, choose one of the earlier pictures you think is impressive, prove that the picture in question was published in the early 90s and there you go.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You seem to think Kishimoto is a good artist, so obviously your taste is ****ed up.

Obviously there's a difference. Kishimoto publishes more pages in a week than Hagiwara publishes in a month, to have the same expectations would be unfair. Even so, the more detailed drawings published on occasions by Kishimoto surpasses everything I've seen in Bastard!!. More importantly Kishimoto's art is more clear-cut and not covered in shadows making it a lot easier to read.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/497/05/

Compared to

http://i26.tinypic.com/71r2xi.jpg

Are you kidding me?

Hagi can obviously never draw with such mastery as this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/306/14/

😱

Originally posted by Endless Mike
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/497/05/

Compared to

http://i26.tinypic.com/71r2xi.jpg

Are you kidding me?


Notice how nothing in the upper panel of the second picture is drawn in inc, but is rather computer generated. Since Bastard!! is a prime example of covering poor artwork with flashy CGI lets examine the following panels.

In the second panel you can clearly see the poorly drawn characters, whereas in the left panel you're able to see the application of CGI.

Now compare the foreground, the characters, to characters from Naruto on a related note the background in Naruto seem to have been drawn by hand.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Hagi can obviously never draw with such mastery as this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/306/14/

😱


Of course he can't, the picture is in two shades, black and white. There are no computer shadowing that could cover up for the mistakes he'd make.

That doesn't look like any CGI I've ever seen. It looks hand drawn. Are you assuming just because it's supposed to be a computer diagram it's CGI? 😆

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That doesn't look like any CGI I've ever seen.

I wouldn't take your poor judgement as a serious argument, that was your inition right?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It looks hand drawn.

Especially the transparent C-shaped icon. Enough with the sarcasm, you have to close your eyes not to notice.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Are you assuming just because it's supposed to be a computer diagram it's CGI? 😆

No. It seems as you're assuming it isn't because the scan contain less black pigment than the original page, is that right?

Because it's completely impossible for human hands to draw something that appears transparent, amirite?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Because it's completely impossible for human hands to draw something that appears transparent, amirite?

Be reasonable, there isn't one pencil stroke in that panel. Manga inc comes in one color, black.

Now there are screen-toners, that some manga artists use. In which you apply pressure to the back of screen-toner to leave a print on the page.

Though it's not really artistic to use as background, it might have been used in some of the earlier volumes.

But his actual artwork is terrible.

I disagree, as well, Astner.

Multiple shades of black can be used.

Also, that diagram does NOT look computer generated. The drawing is rather simple and I, with my sh*t drawing skills, could easily draw that.