What about Uryû Ishida vs. Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
What about Uryû Ishida vs. Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
Um, Ishida would stomp Ollie.
As far as the Juggs vs. Akatsuki discussion is concerned, my opinion was based on the premise that Juggs wouldn't neccesarily have chakra, but the "universal energy" thing would be applied. That's how it usually goes with characters of different universes. When people matchup 'naruto', 'yu yu hakusho', 'bleach', etc. characters, they all have the same kind of energy... in other words,
chakra = reitsu = ki = spirit energy.
If that's not the case, then matching any anime character against any comic book character, is moronic.
Originally posted by Bentley
Yeah, but making genjutsu absolutely useless for Naruto characters wouldn't be fair either would it? Its just fair to think that since Juggs has no resistance against psychic energies, which again, manipulate Juggernaut's thoughts and nervous system -because he thinks-, there is no good reason to claim he could defend a chakra system when its used to the same end.Edit: But well, I think nothing was actually proposed on this vein so let's not dig further off topic.
Making chakra equivalent for a character who has some sort of uniform derivative energy source (i.e ki, reiatsu, chi...these are energy forms that are all encompassing within their specific universes) etc is one thing and is acceptable and perhaps needed for ease of comparisons. However in the case where a character is powered by a unique and specific energy source within his own universe (i.e an energy source that is not uniform for characters within that universe then) then simply imposing some sort of chakra system upon him is an unjust handicap. Juggernaut is powered by cyttoraks magical energy and he differs from other beings (even within his own universe) in that regard. Similar to how wonderman is powerd by ionic energy or Surfer is powered by cosmic energy or Thor is powered by godly energies. In a fight between surfer and a naruto character does Surfer sudenly spontaneously develop chakra (which is akin to natural human lifeforce) when we know specifically that he is powered by the ambient cosmic energy? Same goes for thor who is powered by godly energy? or do we then equate chakra to the myriad of unique energy sources that we have in marvel?
In the case of characters that have distinct specific powersources within their own universe we cannot just supplant their powersource and impose and entirely different powersources upon them just to accomodate another character. What id consider chakra as the general life energy that powers most beings in a universe (for marvel that would be humans or anyone lacking a distinctly different powersource). Hence for characters lacking their own unique energy source then chakra equivalence would be applicable. However it would not be in the case of characters with their own distinct in-universe power sources.
Even if you use "universal energy" so that genjutsu can be effective, the Akatsuki would still have to get Cain's helmet off(which would practically be committing suicide since that entails someone getting close enough to touch him) and even then, no Naruto character who utilizes genjutsu is anywhere close to most comic telepaths, so yeah... there's no way that fight is anything less than a stomp by Juggs.
Originally posted by Naija boy
However in the case where a character is powered by a unique and specific energy source within his own universe (i.e an energy source that is not uniform for characters within that universe then) then simply imposing some sort of chakra system upon him is an unjust handicap.
Characters don't change nor lose their powersources, but the neutral-universe rule dictates that Flash can steal speed from characters that don't get their speed from the speed force, because Flash would be handicapped otherwise, another exemple would be that Dark Vader wouldn't be able to predict Iron-man because IM had no force or whatsoever. The point being, Juggernaut would get a chakra system, but it would be independant from his non-chakra powerset, as his psychic abilities are independant from his magic powers. As such, Juggs still has his powerset and the character is not changed, but by getting a chakra system he doesn't inmediately gains chakra inmunity.
Originally posted by Kal-El Summers
Even if you use "universal energy" so that genjutsu can be effective, the Akatsuki would still have to get Cain's helmet off(which would practically be committing suicide since that entails someone getting close enough to touch him) and even then, no Naruto character who utilizes genjutsu is anywhere close to most comic telepaths, so yeah... there's no way that fight is anything less than a stomp by Juggs.
Putting Cain to sleep as Jiraya did against Pain with the frog song would count as a win -not that I'm saying Akatsuki can do or has done something like that on panel-. Tobi/Madara could just teleport the helmet off.
Originally posted by Bentley
Characters don't change nor lose their powersources, but the neutral-universe rule dictates that Flash can steal speed from characters that don't get their speed from the speed force, because Flash would be handicapped otherwise, another exemple would be that Dark Vader wouldn't be able to predict Iron-man because IM had no force or whatsoever. The point being, Juggernaut would get a chakra system, but it would be independant from his non-chakra powerset, as his psychic abilities are independant from his magic powers. As such, Juggs still has his powerset and the character is not changed, but by getting a chakra system he doesn't inmediately gains chakra inmunity.
The flash analogy isnt applicable here. Flash gets his powers from the SF but he steals Kinetic energy. This is a uniform energy form that all characters have as long as they can move regardless of where they come from. THe neutral universe rule says that the characters powers our maintained it doesnt go about adding extra features or characteristics to opposing characters in order to accomodate one character. Giving Juggs a chakra system is nothing more than a forced handicap because its not something he normally has even when we equate energy forms across universes. He has no knowledge of how to control said chakra system as it is simply an addition onto his original set of powers.
@ Kal.
you don't think Madara or Itachi would figure that out?
Kakuzu is more than strong enough to take Juggs helmet off and he's way to fast for Juggs to hit him in the process; even if Juggs did hit and one-shot him (which is unlikely), big woop... 4 more lives.
KO (incapacitation) counts as a win, i never said they could kill Jiggs, but they can most certainly defeat him.
Originally posted by Kal-El Summers
The Akatsuki would first have to know that the only way they could win with genjutsu is to remove his helmet first.
Genjutsu, unlike psychic abilities, enters through sensorial imput, Itachi needs to lock-eyes with the enemy, the Jiraya song enters through the ears. Since Juggs has been affected by sonics with his helmet on, its pretty clear manipulation wouldn't be a forced requirement to every kind of genjutsu.
Originally posted by Bentley
Fine, pick any other exemple, Dagger from Cloak and Dagger fame uses a soul dagger against someone who is from an universe without "soul energy", let's say, Sherlock Holmes.Neutral universe says it works.
Faulty analogy. For it to be a parrallel to this situation, Dagger from cloak and dagger would have to use a soul dagger against someone who while they dont have something specific such as soul energy or whatever have some similar thing which it can be equated to. THEN u would have to have dagger attempting to use a soul dagger on someone who even within the opposing universe who was something OTHER than the equivalent of that soul energy.
And it that case it WOULDNT work. This is matter of equivalence, but u are attempting to add an independent attribute to a particular character. The neutral universe rule in no way shape or form supports this. If we continue in this line of logic we will get comical results.
I don't see why it would be so different nor understand the comical implications you try to imply. The point of putting a chakra system on Juggernaut is so the powers work as they would against other characters; Juggs has no resistance against psychics (his helmet aside, which they would need to remove) and he wouldn't have resistance against a power that is analogous to psychic. I'm not saying Naruto characters manipulate magic or cosmic power, but they should be able to use their powers against other characters.
If Juggs face against a genjutsu user who can't just genjutsu the character is not even himself and any combat would be pointless, that's completely against the whole idea of a VS forum.
Originally posted by Bentley
I don't see why it would be so different nor understand the comical implications you try to imply. The point of putting a chakra system on Juggernaut is so the powers work as they would against other characters; Juggs has no resistance against psychics (his helmet aside, which they would need to remove) and he wouldn't have resistance against a power that is analogous to psychic. I'm not saying Naruto characters manipulate magic or cosmic power, but they should be able to use their powers against other characters.If Juggs face against a genjutsu user who can't just genjutsu the character is not even himself and any combat would be pointless, that's completely against the whole idea of a VS forum.
What would make it comical, is the fact that if we continue in that line of thought we could get to some high extremes. The only initial argument that could be made for the chakra system line is one of equivalence in other words equating an energy form in one universe to an energy form in another universe in order to facilitate ease of debate. However note that the word used is an energy form which indicates a singular energy form. Hence when debating bleach vs naruto or vs dragon ball Z. Chakra would be equivalent to Ki and similarly reiatsu. However its fortunate in those cases that chakra reiatsu and ki are the uniform energy forms within their universe. In a universe with a myriad of energy forms such as marvel, Chakra would still only be equivalent to one energy form not every single one that exists. Hence as i described earlier the most analogous energy form would be the general lifeforce that powers humans plants and beings that arent specifically powered by something else. However, in the case of beings with entirely distinct energy sources then it would certainly not be equivalent or we would have to assume its equivalent to all energy sources within marvel.
Consequently what u are trying to propose to circumvent that is that we simply add a chakra system to juggernaut which operates independently of his magical powersource. The problem here is that this brings us out of the realm of equivalence and instead we are supplementing a characters powerset with an additional characteristic which he has no control over. Thats what makes this an unfair handicap. We could similarly do the same in a naruto vs Odin fight and give Odin a chakra system that operates independantly from his regular power base, and the result would be an Odin totally unable to counter any attack by naruto that focuses on his chakra system because he (Odin) lacks any sort of useful control over his chakra system in the first place. We could continue with this and add this to even hiigher mor powerful beings as well.
If a character who can control only magical energy faces off against a foe who uses cosmic energy, we do not give the cosmic energy user, a magical energy power base just so we can accomodate the magical energy manipulator. The neutral universe rule as ive said before does not support any such handicapping of characters no matter how u try to spin it. The idea of the vs forum is not in any way defeated, all that occurs is that one character is bad matchuo for another due to his powersource.
Originally posted by Naija boy
We could similarly do the same in a naruto vs Odin fight and give Odin a chakra system that operates independantly from his regular power base, and the result would be an Odin totally unable to counter any attack by naruto that focuses on his chakra system because he (Odin) lacks any sort of useful control over his chakra system in the first place. We could continue with this and add this to even hiigher mor powerful beings as well.
Except we already do that, we accept that Emma Frost can mind-rape high level characters if they have never shown resistance against psychic powers, so mind-raping an opponent by using chakra would be exactly the same thing. You're the one trying to make special rules against chakra.
(Also, considering the amount of control Odin has over himself and the powers on his disposal he could easily counter chakra manipulation.)
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Yeah but they have a mind.It's basically giving Iceman or Colossus Pressure Points for Kenshiro to hit.
Giving Clayface a solid form for Hulk to be able to beat and knock out.
Giving Ultron a mind so Emma can affect him.
But chakra exists -in Naruto's universe- on every living being, as its safe to assume a character would've a mind to affect because they think, chakra and chi should exist in a way if you are a living being since they are akin to a soul. Making Harry Potter having a connection with the cosmic power to have him Rulk drain him would be more akin to your examples.
I'd like to point out that I'm not saying that Juggernaut is being killed by chakra, he's affected by mind-rape which just happens to pass through chakra. If you use chakra manipulation such as calm fist from Neji, you wouldn't be able to kill Cain with it, because Juggernaut's magic prevent him from suffering the effects caused by blocking chakra -heart failing, dying-. If chakra affects the brain by physical means it would be like sending gas to Juggernaut and we would know that wouldn't work. But if chakra just affects the brain, then it would be like Ultron using an encephalo ray on Cain, why the hell would it fail?