Cross Genre Nominations Thread #5

Originally posted by Bentley
Except we already do that, we accept that Emma Frost can mind-rape high level characters if they have never shown resistance against psychic powers, so mind-raping an opponent by using chakra would be exactly the same thing. You're the one trying to make special rules against chakra.

(Also, considering the amount of control Odin has over himself and the powers on his disposal he could easily counter chakra manipulation.)

😬 wut? u keep ignoring the parts of my posts which completely discredit this argument of yours and then misinterpreting the part u see fit. Ur reply didnt even relate to my post in the slightest. Accepting that Emma can mindrape high level characters is in no way analogous to supplementing a characters powerset with an additional characterstic in order to accomodate another character. There is simply no precedent for to even open up the possibility of a chakra mindrape in the first place.....

Moreover actually NO, given that following ur reasoning the chakra system would operate independently from Odins normal powers he wouldnt be able to counter it because while there is the presence of a chakra system (which he was just spontaneously granted) the skill and control of it to a level which can counter a skilled genjutsu user is NOT there. why? because Odin doesnt know how to use chakra to the extent that naruto characters do (again this is a result of the chakra systems spontaneous appearance). The only other option is then arbitrarily granting Odin some particular level of chakra control( which would be done at random with little to nothing to support an accurate placement).

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Yeah but they have a mind.

It's basically giving Iceman or Colossus Pressure Points for Kenshiro to hit.

Giving Clayface a solid form for Hulk to be able to beat and knock out.

Giving Ultron a mind so Emma can affect him.

you get the picture.

Originally posted by Bentley
But chakra exists -in Naruto's universe- on every living being, as its safe to assume a character would've a mind to affect because they think, chakra and chi should exist in a way if you are a living being since they are akin to a soul.

No one is disputing the presence of a mind in juggernaut to be affected. However to say that Chakra should exist across the board for all marvel characters regardless of their own actual energy source is faulty. Chakra is the energy found within living things within naruto. i.e including plants and insects etc (not a soul cause plans dont have souls ). Hence its most analogous to the life energy that powers humans and other beings in marvel that arent powered by specific unique forces. Juggernaut however is one of those beings and is powered by a constant connection to Cyttoraks magic therefore the energy that empowers him is different from that of a regular being. Subsequently even after we use the rule of energy equivalence he still wouldnt fall under the category of a chakra powered being and would definitely not have a chakra system neutral universe or not.

Originally posted by marwash22
@ Kal.

you don't think Madara or Itachi would figure that out?

Kakuzu is more than strong enough to take Juggs helmet off and he's way to fast for Juggs to hit him in the process; even if Juggs did hit and one-shot him (which is unlikely), big woop... 4 more lives.

KO (incapacitation) counts as a win, i never said they could kill Jiggs, but they can most certainly defeat him.

Originally posted by Naija boy
😬 wut? u keep ignoring the parts of my posts which completely discredit this argument of yours and then misinterpreting the part u see fit. Ur reply didnt even relate to my post in the slightest. Accepting that Emma can mindrape high level characters is in no way analogous to supplementing a characters powerset with an additional characterstic in order to accomodate another character. There is simply no precedent for to even open up the possibility of a chakra mindrape in the first place.....

Moreover actually NO, given that following ur reasoning the chakra system would operate independently from Odins normal powers he wouldnt be able to counter it because while there is the presence of a chakra system (which he was just spontaneously granted) the skill and control of it to a level which can counter a skilled genjutsu user is NOT there. why? because Odin doesnt know how to use chakra to the extent that naruto characters do (again this is a result of the chakra systems spontaneous appearance). The only other option is then arbitrarily granting Odin some particular level of chakra control( which would be done at random with little to nothing to support an accurate placement).

Originally posted by Naija boy
No one is disputing the presence of a mind in juggernaut to be affected. However to say that Chakra should exist across the board for all marvel characters regardless of their own actual energy source is faulty. Chakra is the energy found within living things within naruto. i.e including plants and insects etc (not a soul cause plans dont have souls ). Hence its most analogous to the life energy that powers humans and other beings in marvel that arent powered by specific unique forces. Juggernaut however is one of those beings and is powered by a constant connection to Cyttoraks magic therefore the energy that empowers him is different from that of a regular being. Subsequently even after we use the rule of energy equivalence he still wouldnt fall under the category of a chakra powered being and would definitely not have a chakra system neutral universe or not.

Rats, misclick.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Moreover actually NO, given that following ur reasoning the chakra system would operate independently from Odins normal powers he wouldnt be able to counter it because while there is the presence of a chakra system (which he was just spontaneously granted) the skill and control of it to a level which can counter a skilled genjutsu user is NOT there. why? because Odin doesnt know how to use chakra to the extent that naruto characters do (again this is a result of the chakra systems spontaneous appearance). The only other option is then arbitrarily granting Odin some particular level of chakra control( which would be done at random with little to nothing to support an accurate placement).

As I said in the case of Juggernaut, Odin's power would help him to counteract the effects chakra manipulation would've on him, which is for all proposes, equivalent to counter chakra manipulation. IMO that's plenty enough to support my statement.

Originally posted by Naija boy
No one is disputing the presence of a mind in juggernaut to be affected. However to say that Chakra should exist across the board for all marvel characters regardless of their own actual energy source is faulty. Chakra is the energy found within living things within naruto. i.e including plants and insects etc (not a soul cause plans dont have souls ). Hence its most analogous to the life energy that powers humans and other beings in marvel that arent powered by specific unique forces. Juggernaut however is one of those beings and is powered by a constant connection to Cyttoraks magic therefore the energy that empowers him is different from that of a regular being. Subsequently even after we use the rule of energy equivalence he still wouldnt fall under the category of a chakra powered being and would definitely not have a chakra system neutral universe or not.

Random nitpick: Maybe plants have soul on Naruto?

Actual comment: Do you have proof that the magical enhancement Cyttorrak provides to Juggernaut actually overrides and dispels the resident life-energy that Juggs possesses by being a living human being? Because if you are willing to admit that Juggernaut can be mind-raped and that he can move and think without having a physical brain, thanks to Cyttorrak, he would need to be affected through a non-physical element which in Marvel would be his astral being (may some of the psy experts on Marvel here on the board correct me if I'm wrong); I think your best shot at actually proving Juggs wouldn't be affected is that chakra is on the body so it cannot be translated to psy etc. etc.

Everything is besides the point, since my argument is that chakra should affect (living) characters outside Naruto, and not the character Juggernaut in particular. What are you disputing again?

Originally posted by Kal-El Summers
So, exactly how are they going to find this out without prior knowledge? And while Juggs is casually walking through everything they're throwing at him?

First off, tell me whether or not we are using the principle of "universal energy" to discuss the match. If not, this is moronic and i see no point in even discussing it further.

I propose we move this discussion to the tiers thread, considering that

A) its seriously off-topic here

and

B) it has serious repercussion in how tiers are constituted, because no universal energy and no genjutsu would turn several characters into sh*t.

Originally posted by Bentley
Rats, misclick.

Random nitpick: Maybe plants have soul on Naruto?

Actual comment: Do you have proof that the magical enhancement Cyttorrak provides to Juggernaut actually overrides and dispels the resident life-energy that Juggs possesses by being a living human being? Because if you are willing to admit that Juggernaut can be mind-raped and that he can move and think without having a physical brain, thanks to Cyttorrak, he would need to be affected through a non-physical element which in Marvel would be his astral being (may some of the psy experts on Marvel here on the board correct me if I'm wrong); I think your best shot at actually proving Juggs wouldn't be affected is that chakra is on the body so it cannot be translated to psy etc. etc.

Everything is besides the point, since my argument is that chakra should affect (living) characters outside Naruto, and not the character Juggernaut in particular. What are you disputing again?

He's saying it should depend on the character and not just automatically effect everyone. Certain character that are made of like magical energy or something shouldnt havea Chakra system etc is what i got from him saying.

Let me put this simply:

We allow all powers to work as they should for the purposes of matches but we don't give other characters weaknesses they don't have just so that spite matches aren't spite matches.

Juggernaut isn't affected by Chakra, at least not directly insofar as I'm concerned.

In a theoretical match between Juggs and a Naruto character the latter would have access to Chakra based attacks but we're not going to allow direct Chakra manipulation of him when the word Chakra (to my knowledge) has never once appeared in Marvel comics.

In the future please use common sense guys. Sometimes it gets tricky (see Speed Force) but in this case Juggernaut's enchantment comes from Cytorrak, not Chakra.

Yeah, but that's what I think both Ninja and me were saying, I only made a passing mention of "manipulating the gem" in my first posts and from there it seems he thought I was discussing for the manipulation which I wasn't. Honest mistake, I think.

Originally posted by jalek moye
He's saying it should depend on the character and not just automatically effect everyone. Certain character that are made of like magical energy or something shouldnt havea Cjhkra system etc is what i got from him saying.

I agree with the assertion.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Let me put this simply:

We allow all powers to work as they should for the purposes of matches but we don't give other characters weaknesses they don't have just so that spite matches aren't spite matches.

Juggernaut isn't affected by Chakra, at least not directly insofar as I'm concerned.

In a theoretical match between Juggs and a Naruto character the latter would have access to Chakra based attacks but we're not going to allow direct Chakra manipulation of him when the word Chakra (to my knowledge) has never once appeared in Marvel comics.

In the future please use common sense guys. Sometimes it gets tricky (see Speed Force) but in this case Juggernaut's enchantment comes from Cytorrak, not Chakra.

👆 👆 👆 tho, u could hve saved me all this time and exposition and simply said this earlier 😛

Originally posted by Naija boy
This would be a stompage in jugges favor. Pain cant even hurt him. Shinra tensei wont even affect a moving juggernaut. and juggs could easily oneshot pain when he gets his hands on him. Juggs vs the whole of akatsuki would likely go the same way.

if you're gonna matchup characters from, let's say, 'Naruto' and 'the X-Men'. it's only logical to either...

-treat Naruto powers as mutant abilities.
or
-give x-men characters chakra systems.
or
-use a universal energy law.

If you don't do any of these things, cross-genre matches can't work. Why would it be acceptable for Prof-X to be able to mindrape Itachi, but not for opposite to be true?

Psychic powers don't even exist in the 'Naruto'-verse, just like chakra doesn't exist in Marvel, so to say it's ok for a Telepath to mindrape a Naruto character via TP, is completely invalid because that simply doesn't exist in 'Naruto'. Now, I'm perfectly ok with accepting the idea of Naruto characters being mindraped via TP... but on the flipside, you also have to let Naruto powers work on Marvel, DC, etc characters.

Telepathy works if u simply have brain though. For something like Chakra it depends on the character, their powers that stem from it work but anything that manipultes another person chakra would defintly depend on what kind of energy said character uses.

A telepath is mindraping a naruto character through the use of his own powers acting out on narutos brain. Unless u want to dispute the fact that naruto has a brain then there is no reason it wont work. We arent adding any additional attributes to naruto characters. Conversely the only way for this to work in this particular scenario is by supplementing juggernauts abilities with the additional attributes of a chakra system. Thats where the whole problem arises.

no need to over complicate.

genjutsu might not work, but that's fine since nobody really defeats anyone using genjutsu all that much, ninjutsu and taijutsu will work fine.

nagato vs juggernaut. let's make it happen 🙂

@ Naija

i get that and i agree.

My problem is, mindraping via TP and telepaths in general do not exist in the Naruto-verse, so you can't even begin prove or disprove that it would even work on a Naruto character. Do you get what I'm saying?

Thats where the whole neutral universe rule will come into play. Hence unless there is a specific reason why his power shouldnt work on naruto (like in this scenario of naruto and juggy or) then the power will operate as normal.

Since Psycho Gundam says it and I somewhat invested myself in discussing about the matchup already... I give a nod to Pain vs Juggernaut.