Re: Re: The New Jedi Order vs The Roman Empire
Originally posted by One Free Man
1. Which side is the far reaches of egypt? Furthest from the romans? you mean the Sahara? Good luck to them getting to the roman empire from there.2. You haven't been fair at all here. Nero is not a strategist, in fact, nero is more towards the fall of the roman empire and is one of the more corrupt ass-wipes to ever be emperor. Probably even a bit insane. Give them Julius Caesar at his height of power.
3. 1 million legions? Do you realize how many this is? This is a billion troops. NJO are probably a dozen Jedi.
So here's how I see this going down.
1. Jedi die in the desert, hundreds of miles from any sort of water or civilization.
2. If they do get to the nile or something without dying by some miracle they have a few options.
These are the options.
a. Is rome allowed to prepare for them to arrive? is this an all out clash? If so, all 1 billion legionaires are waiting for them and they drown on corpses or get tired and die of spear wounds.
b. If rome has no idea they are there, they could covertly destroy nero and take the kingdom from the inside out. but then, how would 1 billion troops make this fair?
So, only one semi-contingency based on a lack of information in the scenario has them winning. they lose.
1. I don't see how that would be that difficult. There were civilized cities in Egypt at that time you know.
2. True, I'll admit that Nero wasn't exactly a genius by any means.
3. First of all, I said an extra million legionaries, not a million extra legions (the Roman Empire wouldn't even have enough food and water to feed the latter). Second of all, the NJO has hundreds of Jedi.
1. "hundreds of miles from any sort of water or civilization"? What? Egypt was a very wealthy and inhabited area.
2. Yeah.
a. As I said, it's a million legionaries, not legions. The latter would die of lack of enough food and water, and a million legionaries are not going to be clumped together in one place. Heck, they won't even be able to track the Jedi or know where they are going.
b. Actually, even if Nero somehow magically knows where they are, his troops will get defeated by the Jedi pretty easily. Also, the Jedi could incite revolts and get a lot of the civilian population, especially the Roman slaves, on their side.
Re: Re: Re: The New Jedi Order vs The Roman Empire
Originally posted by HewhoknowsallWhich, as you will see, are all gathered around the center, that is to say, the nile, the only source of water for a thousand miles in that desert.
1. I don't see how that would be that difficult. There were civilized cities in Egypt at that time you know.
indeed.
2. True, I'll admit that Nero wasn't exactly a genius by any means.
forgive my mistake. Either way, it's still like giving the roman empire a million battle-hardened war heroes. You weren't promoted to legionaire in those days by being a pussy. Think rambo in a helmet.
3. First of all, I said an extra million legionaries, not a million extra legions (the Roman Empire wouldn't even have enough food and water to feed the latter). Second of all, the NJO has hundreds of Jedi.
see rerebutal 1. The far side of ancient egypt is no where near the nile. The nile is the only source of water and the only place that cities are gathered.
1. "hundreds of miles from any sort of water or civilization"? What? Egypt was a very wealthy and inhabited area.
Alright, so "hundreds" of jedi somehow get into roman territory. Warrior monks armed with swords. How fast is the alarm raised? Pretty damn. you see, a couple hundred jedi is no-where near small enough to be a covert black operation. It's also nowhere near enough to defeat the roman empire+1,000,000 men.
a. As I said, it's a million legionaries, not legions. The latter would die of lack of enough food and water, and a million legionaries are not going to be clumped together in one place. Heck, they won't even be able to track the Jedi or know where they are going.
Also, now that you see the jedi have no chance of winning, you're going to make up bullshit theories about the jedis doing some black ops shit involving the millenium falcon, the hoverboards from back to the future 2, and a tag team featuring donald duck, dirty harry, fotj luke, the I am legend guy, and obama who parachute in using the hoverboards and assassinate nero. Everytime someone comes up with something contrary to your magic plan you're going to change it. I might as well give up now.
Not really. Have you ever seen a large crowd of people? that's a hundred thousand people. Now imagine if it where ten times that many and they were all seasoned warriors.
b. Actually, even if Nero somehow magically knows where they are, his troops will get defeated by the Jedi pretty easily. Also, the Jedi could incite revolts and get a lot of the civilian population, especially the Roman slaves, on their side.
also, there were 200 thousand soldiers in the roman army at it's prime. all that land was owned by 200 thousand soldiers. that means, in all the movies you've ever seen with all those massive armies, you've never seen a group exceeding 200 thousand soldiers.
even split 200 ways like you say there are jedi in the njo, each one has to kill 50 thousand troops AT LEAST. how many times can you swing a saber?
But thanks for playing.
1. First of all, I'd assume that the Jedi would have water and food with them, but even if they don't they could travel 1000 miles in the desert to, say, the Nile; remember that they can use the Force to counteract the heat, and there have been numerous cases of skilled Force users using the Force to survive without food or water for quite a while.
2. Yeah, Nero wasn't known to be a military genius.
3. Jedi are far tougher than legionaries though. Most of them are trained from a very young age and they have the Force, effectively making them super humans.
4. But Jedi can move very fast, and they can use the Force to counteract the heat and sustain themselves for quite a while.
5. What? "warrior monks armed with swords"? More like "battle hardened and intelligent warrior monks armed with lightsabers and possessing supernatural powers".
Besides, the Romans won't be able to clump their entire army into one place and then march towards the Jedi; that would be a logistical nightmare. Nero would likely send waves at the Jedi (if Nero can even locate the Jedi), who would simply stand their and mass Force push the Roman ranks into oblivion. Any Roman that gets close gets killed by the Jedi using their lightsabers.
If the Jedi can block blaster bolts from multiple directions, then they can easily block sword strikes and arrows.
Oh, and the Jedi CAN act as covert black ops; who's to say that they have to stay in one place at once when they have comlinks? They can split up and covertly collapse the Roman Empire; the Romans will have no effective way to protect any major military or political figure from capture or assassination from the Jedi.
Oh, and the Jedi can also mind trick a large part of the army to their side; although not all would be affected, a large amount probably would.
Nero would likely send waves at the Jedi (if Nero can even locate the Jedi), who would simply stand their and mass Force push the Roman ranks into oblivion. Any Roman that gets close gets killed by the Jedi using their lightsabers.
For the love of Christ stop coming up with hypothetical situations, thats not how this works.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The New Jedi Order vs The Roman Empire
Besides, the Romans won't be able to clump their entire army into one place and then march towards the Jedi; that would be a logistical nightmare. Nero would likely send waves at the Jedi (if Nero can even locate the Jedi), who would simply stand their and mass Force push the Roman ranks into oblivion. Any Roman that gets close gets killed by the Jedi using their lightsabers.If the Jedi can block blaster bolts from multiple directions, then they can easily block sword strikes and arrows.
Oh, and the Jedi CAN act as covert black ops; who's to say that they have to stay in one place at once when they have comlinks? They can split up and covertly collapse the Roman Empire; the Romans will have no effective way to protect any major military or political figure from capture or assassination from the Jedi.
Oh, and the Jedi can also mind trick a large part of the army to their side; although not all would be affected, a large amount probably would. [/B]
Originally posted by One Free Man
Also, now that you see the jedi have no chance of winning, you're going to make up bullshit theories about the jedis doing some black ops shit involving the millenium falcon, the hoverboards from back to the future 2, and a tag team featuring donald duck, dirty harry, fotj luke, the I am legend guy, and obama who parachute in using the hoverboards and assassinate nero. Everytime someone comes up with something contrary to your magic plan you're going to change it. I might as well give up now.But thanks for playing.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. First of all, I'd assume that the Jedi would have water and food with them, but even if they don't they could travel 1000 miles in the desert to, say, the Nile; remember that they can use the Force to counteract the heat, and there have been numerous cases of skilled Force users using the Force to survive without food or water for quite a while.
Also, I understand jedi don't exactly need ALOT of food and water, but weeks/months of walking without a drop is a little much.
And yes, there have been cases of skilled force users using the force to survive without sustenance. that's the word here. So after the unskilled die of starvation/thirst you'll have about 12-20 left?
Also, you're giving them food and water which was not in the op so goodbye.
2. Yeah, Nero wasn't known to be a military genius.
NJO JEDI ARE NOT TRAINED FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE. you fail. good day sir.
3. Jedi are far tougher than legionaries though. Most of them are trained from a very young age and they have the Force, effectively making them super humans.
ah but for how long? we've seen top tier force users show age and even fatigue from fighting/running, etc. in the movies.
4. But Jedi can move very fast, and they can use the Force to counteract the heat and sustain themselves for quite a while.
Semantics. the jedi are warrior monks armed with light-swords. big deal that you described it in jizz-o-matic fanboy language.
5. What? "warrior monks armed with swords"? More like "battle hardened and intelligent warrior monks armed with lightsabers and possessing supernatural powers".
Besides, the Romans won't be able to clump their entire army into one place and then march towards the Jedi; that would be a logistical nightmare. Nero would likely send waves at the Jedi (if Nero can even locate the Jedi), who would simply stand their and mass Force push the Roman ranks into oblivion. Any Roman that gets close gets killed by the Jedi using their lightsabers.If the Jedi can block blaster bolts from multiple directions, then they can easily block sword strikes and arrows.
Oh, and the Jedi CAN act as covert black ops; who's to say that they have to stay in one place at once when they have comlinks? They can split up and covertly collapse the Roman Empire; the Romans will have no effective way to protect any major military or political figure from capture or assassination from the Jedi.
Oh, and the Jedi can also mind trick a large part of the army to their side; although not all would be affected, a large amount probably would.
Also, now that you see the jedi have no chance of winning, you're going to make up bullshit theories about the jedis doing some black ops shit involving the millenium falcon, the hoverboards from back to the future 2, and a tag team featuring donald duck, dirty harry, fotj luke, the I am legend guy, and obama who parachute in using the hoverboards and assassinate nero. Everytime someone comes up with something contrary to your magic plan you're going to change it. I might as well give up now.But thanks for playing.
Are you sure that there weren't ANY towns or anything in that part of the Roman Empire? Because it wouldn't make sense that the Romans would even claim that land if it had no value. Oh, and food and water is part of "SW technology"; in fact, SW has stasis chambers and such to preserve food. From what I remember in Social Studies/History, there were several trade routes along that path as well, so it isn't in the middle of nowhere.
You said "Warrior monks armed with swords". There is a HUGE difference between a sword and a lightsaber, and a HUGE difference between regular "warrior monks" and well trained warrior monks with supernatural powers. You were trying to make the Jedi seem less powerful than they really are. Simply put, the Jedi are FAR superior to the Romans in combat effectiveness. The Romans are used to moving in relatively tight formations, which would fall to Force pushes quite easily. They are also used to blocking a guy's attack with their shield and then stabbing with the gladius, and using this method as well as superior tactics they were able to defeat the "barbarian" nations. Against the Jedi however, this would fail as the Roman shields will not be able to block a lightsaber or the Force. Nero is no military genius and wouldn't be able to come up with a plan to fight the Jedi.
Oh, and I notice that you didn't actually provide a reason as to how my plan doesn't work. My plan DOES work; the Jedi could easily topple the Roman Empire. PROVE ME WRONG IF YOU CAN.
Oh, and what was it with your earlier post about the Jedi having to kill at least 50,000 Roman troops? There're about, say, 200 Jedi in the NJO vs, with the extra million troops the Romans get for this thread, 1.2 million or so Romans. 1.2 million/200 = 6000, and that isn't factoring those that can be mind tricked and those that will run away or bow down and worship the Jedi once they see the Jedi and their powers, which is the majority. Oh, and the Jedi won't have to fight all of them at once. They can use a sniper rifle (which is "other SW technology" and has been used by Jedi before) to kill the leaders of the opposing armies.
Oh, and if I have to, I can point out that "other SW technology" (aka technology that the Jedi regularly use) would include Stealth X's.
When the Jedi arrive and show their powers, the civilian populace and much of the military will bow down and call them gods.
I'm trying as hard as possible to be civil with you One Free Man, despite the hostile attitude that you've shown be before, but you really can't debate that well. You don't actually respond to my arguments that well in many cases. Obviously you don't know anything about how difficult it would be in ancient and even modern times to effectively put together and feed one million troops and then march them however many miles, track down the Jedi and then prevent them from bowing down to the Jedi upon seeing their powers. Nor do you realize how important technology is in a war, or how impossible it would be for the Romans to do any harm to the Jedi.
Originally posted by One Free Man
NJO JEDI ARE NOT TRAINED FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE. you fail. good day sir.
People like Jaina, Jacen, Anakin, Ben, Tesar, Tekli, Ganner, Valin, Jesylla and the many other Jedi Knights who were trained from a young age weren't in fact trained at a young age, and the books are just lying to us?
Oh yea, capslock=win, i forgot. 🙁
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
People like Jaina, Jacen, Anakin, Ben, Tesar, Tekli, Ganner, Valin, Jesylla and the many other Jedi Knights who were trained from a young age weren't in fact trained at a young age, and the books are just lying to us?Oh yea, capslock=win, i forgot. 🙁
Yeah, although not all NJO Jedi were trained at a young age, a lot of them were.
Here's the Jedi plan (if any of you think that this plan is wrong, ACTUALLY TELL ME HOW IT'S WRONG; it's okay to think up of hypothetical plans if they actually work, which in this case it does):
The Jedi cross the desert, going along trade routes that have quite a bit of people in them. If necessary, they can buy food and water in exchange for a lot of stuff that the Jedi can provide, such as datapads and medicine.
The Jedi arrive in a major city such as Cairo.
Nero sends an army to kill the Jedi.
The Jedi show off their powers and the army runs away or bows down and worships the Jedi. If that doesn't work, then they simply mass Force push the Roman ranks.
They begin to stir up the populace and get many of the Roman slaves and oppressed civilians on their side. Any Roman soldiers that try and stop this get cut down.
The Jedi and their allies launch a surprise invasion on Rome, taking control of the city and declaring themselves the rulers of Rome. Any army that gets in their way can be mind tricked, convinced into defecting, scared away or mass Force pushed and lightsaber chopped to death.
They promise the Senate that they will return their powers to them; the Senate will like this, and join the NJO's side.
Any Roman army that actually wants to still fight for Nero (who's dead, captured or on the run) won't stand a chance against the Jedi, who could mass Force push and lightsaber attack any Roman formation to death.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
[B]Here's the Jedi plan (if any of you think that this plan is wrong, ACTUALLY TELL ME HOW IT'S WRONG;
I'm going to stop debating with you and instead tell you why this is wrong. Since you requested it so humbly.
Alright, here's what's wrong with making a hypothetical plan for your preferred side instead of using facts and logic.
1. You're writing fan fiction. Anything can happen in fan fiction. I can make a hypothetical fictional account of something and say that's what they do all I want. For instance:
Jar Jar vs Emperor Palpatine:
ok so heres what jar jar can do, ok? jar jar, he gets a super blaster minigun like the one canderous had in KOTOR and then he sneaks in. He finds a ventilation shaft like the boondock saints and crawls through it very sneakily. The emperor is taking a nap in his bed. He doesn't here jar jar coming. Jar jar opens the vent above the emperor very very slowly so that the emperor can't hear him coming and then aims very very carefully and shoots the emperor in the head. The emperor is dead. Jar Jar is victorious.
HURRAAHhhh I just proved that jar-jar>>>>The EMPEROR!!!!
now. I can modify this scenario every time you give me a rebuttal, such as claiming that food is now technology because jedi-fridges are technology.
2. There's too many contingencies. as with my example there, how did jar jar get past the storm troopers? or the 24 hour imperial crimson troopers? How do we know there are even ventilation shafts in the emperor's quarters? Can Jar Jar operate that sort of blaster? Does Jar Jar have the capacity to be silent for over 23.4 seconds?
3. You aren't jar jar. You aren't NJO luke. You are you and you're hypothetical plan isn't what they are going to do, probably. You have no idea what they are ACTUALLY going to do, plan-wise. That's why we go with straight on fights, using facts, logic, and feats to prove that one side is more powerful than the other, rather than writing a detailed account of how the battle goes over in our minds. Yeah we might say "Palpatine rapes jar-jar" but when it gets down to brass tacks, we're going to detail what makes palpatine better, not what palpatine actually does in order to defeat Jar Jar.
4. "Damned are those that change facts to suit theories rather than theories to suit facts."--Sherlock Holmes
Your little scenario is never constant. jar jar only gets one shot at this. he either follows one of your plans or the other. The instant someone points out that there are security cameras with machine turrets on a 24/7 guards in all ventilation shafts as according to "star wars: lame dramatic EU name, issue 25" so jar jar absolutely cannot get in without eating lead, now jar jar grabs a blaster shield like the ones from episode 1 and uses that to get past, as if he knew there were going to be those turrets. Anyone you route for is injustly invincible using this method of debate.
Jar Jar doesn't know what's ahead of him. how can he? yet you change your little scenario every time he meets some adversity until people stop posting then you claim your pseudo-victory (pseudo=fake, for those of you taking notes)
Here's an example of this faulty reasoning, one that you and I had an exchange over:
I pointed out that the far side of egypt is the middle of the sahara.
You said that the jedi probably have food.
I said that that wasn't in the OP.
You said that since it is within star war's technological capabilities to have an advanced refrigerator, therefor food is now technology and they have access to star wars technology.
I called you an idiot.
I was right; therefor I won.
Thank you for playing.
Originally posted by One Free Man
1. You're writing fan fiction. Anything can happen in fan fiction. I can make a hypothetical fictional account of something and say that's what they do all I want.
Aren't all these vs fights hypothetical?
Aren't we supposed to debate describing how we think a certain side will win? Instead of just saying "this person wins" and offering no explanation?
Originally posted by One Free Man
Your little scenario is never constant. jar jar only gets one shot at this. he either follows one of your plans or the other.
Are you implying that if two opponents face eachother, that no matter what, everytime they fight it will go the exact same way? Not just the end result but every action?
VP
Aren't all these vs fights hypothetical?Aren't we supposed to debate describing how we think a certain side will win? Instead of just saying "this person wins" and offering no explanation?
Yup.
But that's not what HWKN is doing (or so I assume). What he does, what he has always done, is create a thread and then pick a side, proclaiming that side to be the victor, based off a series of finely manufactured what if scenarios.
That isn't what we do here. What we do here is based on what is likely and what is canonical.
HWKN constructs arguments that presuppose a long series of unlikely or questionable circumstances and he typically doesn't stick to single standards.
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Aren't all these vs fights hypothetical?
Not necessarily how, but why. Why does this person win? We can't tell how darth maul and darth revan would exchange if they ever were to face off. We can only determine which one has the greater power/skill via previous feats to determine the winner.
Aren't we supposed to debate describing how we think a certain side will win? Instead of just saying "this person wins" and offering no explanation?
Hewhoknowsthemeaningoffailure picked the side he wanted to win when he made the thread, for the sole perpose of arguing that side until everyone has grown tired of fighting his invincible pseudo-debate. (pseudo means fake here as well)
@One Free Man:
The problem with your argument is that it rests on a flawed analogy. In order for a plan to work the person or people must be capable of thinking up of a good plan and then successfully carry it out. Jar Jar Binks is neither smart enough to think up of that plan nor capable of carrying it out. Also, you made your plan intentionally absurd, whereas my plan is NOT absurd.
My plan is LIKELY to succeed and the NJO is smart enough to think up of it. If you disagree, please PROVE ME WRONG (if you can).
Can someone tell me how my "hypothetical plans" are any different from a more complex (but still reasonable) version of a statement like "well Exar Kun could kill Dooku using his amulets" or "Yoda could Force TK Grevious"?
@Gideon:
You consistently insult me without actually knowing what I'm saying. You consider yourself to be a good debater, which you often are, but your manners, morals and often times common sense can often times be questionable.
I see. Don't you think some of the scenarios he has presented are actually likley though? Sometimes unlikely things do happen. An underdog who gets a crazy win somehow. Especially in these fantasy settings unlikely things happen quite often don't they? Like how the Kracken dies in Clash of the Titans, it was pretty unlikely that they would have the one possible way to destroy him.
Perhaps i'm just not thinking about this the correct way. I do see this happening in the 'comic vs' forums though, where they give a x/10, because sometimes unlikely things happen. That seems like the more logical way to think about things to me. Theres just so many variables.