The New Jedi Order vs The Roman Empire

Started by Hewhoknowsall13 pages
Hewhoknowsall Restricted

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I see. Don't you think some of the scenarios he has presented are actually likley though? Sometimes unlikely things do happen. An underdog who gets a crazy win somehow. Especially in these fantasy settings unlikely things happen quite often don't they? Like how the Kracken dies in Clash of the Titans, it was pretty unlikely that they would have the one possible way to destroy him.

Perhaps i'm just not thinking about this the correct way. I do see this happening in the 'comic vs' forums though, where they give a x/10, because sometimes unlikely things happen. That seems like the more logical way to think about things to me. Theres just so many variables.

Except that in this scenario the Romans are the underdogs; they're facing a space age group with space age weapons, a high level of intelligence and supernatural powers in the form of the Force.

One Free Man Restricted

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@One Free Man:

The problem with your argument is that it rests on a flawed analogy. In order for a plan to work the person or people must be capable of thinking up of a good plan and then successfully carry it out. Jar Jar Binks is neither smart enough to think up of that plan nor capable of carrying it out. Also, you made your plan intentionally absurd, whereas my plan is NOT absurd.


You can't prove me wrong. And Jar Jar has proved himself ingenious multiple times. He took out an entire tank with his bare hands. He's a general in the gungun army. He's also a senator. this is also 30 years in the future when palpatine is emperor. You honestly think he is an incompetent with feats like these? He's brilliant. Even if he isn't, he takes the death star schematics from leia and then goes off to kill the emperor, knowing where everything is.

Also, it's not as absurd as jedi knowing where trade routes are, or knowing what direction to go in while in the middle of the desert, much less trade routes existing in the middle of the sahara.


My plan is LIKELY to succeed and the NJO is smart enough to think up of it. If you disagree, please PROVE ME WRONG (if you can).

I'm sorry, I can't. I've explained why. You'll just modify your scenario every time I present adversity to your protagonist.

Also, you have no idea what the NJO's plan is. Your plan is one contingency. The NJO also don't have ships, or GPS's and they have no idea where they are, how to speak the language, or anything about the culture they are in. your hypothetical plans depend on all of this.


Can someone tell me how my "hypothetical plans" are any different from a more complex (but still reasonable) version of a statement like "well Exar Kun could kill Dooku using his amulets" or "Yoda could Force TK Grevious"?
Fine. I will. You are drawing out a complicated guess as to what your favorite characters would do in a situation.

Pointing out that Exar Kun has amulets which he could use to blast Dooku is simple, to the point, irrefutable, and based on solid fact. Exar Kun does have amulets. He could use them to blast dooku. This is not a long explanation dependant upon unknown variables. It's an ability, skill, or knowledge that exar kun has at his disposal, not a scenario he could carry out.

Yoda has very powerful force TK. He could use it to force grevious. This is a skill, ability, feat, or knowledge that yoda has. It's not a drawn out account of some battle plan.


@Gideon:

You consistently insult me without actually knowing what I'm saying. You consider yourself to be a good debater, which you often are, but your manners, morals and often times common sense can often times be questionable.

Idiot. gideon knows, almost intuitively, exactly what your saying. Let's review his post.

But that's not what HWKN is doing (or so I assume).
leaving room for error, maybe you aren't doing it this time, but he hits the nail on the head in a moment.
What he does, what he has always done, is create a thread and then pick a side, proclaiming that side to be the victor, based off a series of finely manufactured what if scenarios.
Did you do that? Why, yes you did!!!!

That isn't what we do here. What we do here is based on what is likely and what is canonical.
Is this what we do here? why yes it is!!!!
HWKN constructs arguments that presuppose a long series of unlikely or questionable circumstances and he typically doesn't stick to single standards.
Is this what you do? why yes it is!!!!!

I'd give gideon's post a:

10 out of 10 for accuracy.

7 out of 10 for confidence. I mean, he left room for error when people like you don't change your style. You've been doing this since day one, why would you change your tactic for this thread?

One Free Man Restricted

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Except that in this scenario the Romans are the underdogs.
Your opinion. I've never heard of any jedi killing 7500 beings, much less battle-hardened warriors, except in one case, and that was nihilus.

I have however heard of battle-hardened warriors wiping out 6 jedi with melee [see young jango fett vs youngish Dooku]

Edit:

It was then that Fett would carry out the act that would make him both famous and infamous for the rest of his life and career: using no weapon beyond his own hands, feet, and armored body, Fett vengefully killed six Jedi, including the one responsible for Myles' death.[12] His efforts, although impressive, couldn't change the outcome of the battle.

With 75 hundred battle hardened warriors for every jedi, (and armed ones, for that matter) how long would this fight last? Very very very very short.

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

Your plan involving Jar Jar does not explain how Jar Jar makes it through the security cameras and guards. Why would Sidious have a ventilation shaft leading to his room and how would Jar Jar know about it? How would he even enter the vicinity of Sidious's resting area without guards catching him? Also, don't miniguns have to charge up (in which case they make noise, which would wake up Sidious) first to fire?

The NJO would be able to sense lifeforms through the Force. Therefore, they'd be able to figure out where the large concentrations of people are.

I can point out how your plan with Jar Jar Binks goes wrong. You can't do the same for my plan.

Oh, and I don't really need to use that plan that I made to show that the Jedi win. The Romans attack Jedi, Jedi mass Force TK (which is a skill/ability that the Jedi have) Romans and/or chop them up with their lightsabers (a skill/ability that the Jedi have, and lightsabers can go through iron and human skin quite easily). They could also mind trick them either to join their side (since some or maybe many of the Romans might be weak minded and the Jedi have shown to be able to perform a mind trick) or to create illusions (which high level Jedi such as Luke and Corran have shown to do). And if the Jedi are somehow forced to retreat, they can easily outrun the Romans.

There, see? I used basic feats that the Jedi have canonically performed to show that the Romans would stand no chance against the Jedi, just like how I could use basic feats that Yoda has canonically performed to show that he can beat Grevious. Yoda could Force TK Grevious, and Yoda would be too fast and agile (which feats and quotes back up) for Grevious to keep up in a lightsaber fight.

Oh, and where did you get your 50,000 Romans per Jedi idea? 1.2 million/200 = 6000, not 50,000. And the all Romans won't be fighting the Jedi at once.

Vorpal Ruin Jedi Master
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Except that in this scenario the Romans are the underdogs; they're facing a space age group with space age weapons, a high level of intelligence and supernatural powers in the form of the Force.

I think that fighting in the Roman empire(homefeild advantage) and facing overwhelming numbers are supposed to even things up. Obviously the person argueing with you disagrees and believes that the NJO are the underdogs since they think the Romans will win.

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

Another thing is that the Jar Jar Binks plan assumes that there is a ventilation shaft conveniently placed and unguarded. I do not assume that there were trade routes at that time; I know (well, based on our knowledge of history) that there were based on historical evidence.

Vorpal Ruin Jedi Master
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And the all Romans won't be fighting the Jedi at once.

Good point. Wouldn't a gurilla warfare campaign be a good and viable tactic for the NJO? They would also be able to communicate(to a extent) at distances, which would be very beneficial. If the OP stated they fight in some field/arena setting that lasted until everyone was dead/defeated i'm sorry I can't remember. 🙂

One Free Man Restricted

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Your plan involving Jar Jar does not explain how Jar Jar makes it through the security cameras and guards.
but this is the beauty of this tactic, you've pointed out an adversity to the object of my fanboyism!! Jar Jar spends the 20 years between ROTS an ANH training under quinlan vos for preparation! Now that he has jedi abilities, he can stealth past them easily.
Why would Sidious have a ventilation shaft leading to his room and how would Jar Jar know about it?
he had a wide trench leading up to a 2 meter wide thermal exhaust port without a grate which would destroy his entire space station of death. You think the guy's smart about tactical weak-points in his space ship? also, he'd have to have environmental controls, and have his oxygen scrubbed, which would lead to a safe environment for himself.
How would he even enter the vicinity of Sidious's resting area without guards catching him?
in the ventilation shaft, using jedi-stealth.
Also, don't miniguns have to charge up (in which case they make noise, which would wake up Sidious) first to fire?
earth miniguns, which use bullets. And I just said "canderous's minigun thing" which isn't really a mini-gun, just a powerful machine gun.

The NJO would be able to sense lifeforms through the Force. Therefore, they'd be able to figure out where the large concentrations of people are.
So once they get there, they don't know the language, they don't know the people, what makes them attack the romans? I mean they don't know that the romans are the bad guys here. They have no intell.

I can point out how your plan with Jar Jar Binks goes wrong. You can't do the same for my plan.
no I proved it. you can't disprove my argument.


Oh, and I don't really need to use that plan that I made to show that the Jedi win. The Romans attack Jedi, Jedi mass Force TK (which is a skill/ability that the Jedi have)
The jedis have TK, not mass force tk. Show me the wiki to this ability, please.
Romans and/or chop them up with their lightsabers (a skill/ability that the Jedi have, and lightsabers can go through iron and human skin quite easily).
you do realize that the point of sword-fighting is not necessarily to block the other sword? 6000-1 is pretty long odds for the jedi having the ability to block all the attacks that come at them.
They could also mind trick them either to join their side (since some or maybe many of the Romans might be weak minded and the Jedi have shown to be able to perform a mind trick)
a legionaire is probably going to be a powerful-minded tactician with exceptional combat ability. They aren't weak minded. Also, most roman soldiers were highly educated.
or to create illusions (which high level Jedi such as Luke and Corran have shown to do).
yay, use mind tricks on the weak minded military tacticians.

There, see? I used basic feats that the Jedi have canonically performed to show that the Romans would stand no chance against the Jedi.
more like basic bullshit.

Oh, and where did you get your 50,000 Romans per Jedi idea? 1.2 million/200 = 6000, not 50,000. And the all Romans won't be fighting the Jedi at once.
I'm sorry, you're right, my calculator added a zero.

Where did you get the number that there are 200 NJO jedi?

truejedi Senior Member

I personally can't see the Jedi winning against that kind of odds, but I also can't envision ANY situation where they die.

One Free Man Restricted

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Another thing is that the Jar Jar Binks plan assumes that there is a ventilation shaft conveniently placed and unguarded. I do not assume that there were trade routes at that time; I know (well, based on our knowledge of history) that there were based on historical evidence.
THERE ARE NO TRADE ROUTES THROUGH THE GOD DAMN SAHARA. THEY USED THE NILE. EVERYTHING TO BE TRADED WAS ON THE NILE. EVERYONE TO BE TRADED TO WAS ON THE NILE. YOU KNOW NOTHING.

One Free Man Restricted

Originally posted by truejedi
I personally can't see the Jedi winning against that kind of odds, but I also can't envision ANY situation where they die.
Fatigue forces them to fall asleep; they drown on bodies, etc.

truejedi Senior Member

*shrug* perhaps.

One Free Man Restricted

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Good point. Wouldn't a gurilla warfare campaign be a good and viable tactic for the NJO? They would also be able to communicate(to a extent) at distances, which would be very beneficial. If the OP stated they fight in some field/arena setting that lasted until everyone was dead/defeated i'm sorry I can't remember. 🙂
No, but it does state that the NJO start in the middle of the sahara with no food or water. And it was specifically geared to make the jedi win using one of HWKN's scenarios.

truejedi Senior Member

yeah, no way the jedi get through the desert with no supplies.

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

For your Jar Jar Binks idea, you haven't proven that Jar Jar Binks is Force sensitive, so how is he supposed to have Force powers?

Mass Force push as in the Jedi all doing a Force push, hence "mass" Force push, like a mass gathering.

Stormtroopers were apparently well trained and got mind tricked in ANH. Oh, and Luke's Force illusions worked on Caedus. Therefore, Luke could trick Roman scouts into seeing Jedi in places that they aren't, luring away Roman armies guarding, say, Rome.

Jedi have been shown to block blaster bolts from multiple directions. Blocking sword stikes would be relatively easy, and a Jedi's lightsaber could easily cut through a gladius.

The Romans simply can't stop the Force. How are they going to get past a Jedi formation using Force push?

One Free Man Restricted

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
For your Jar Jar Binks idea, you haven't proven that Jar Jar Binks is Force sensitive, so how is he supposed to have Force powers?
Prove he's not. He's shown amaizing ability and procognition. You haven't proven that the jedi actually can survive for 500 miles of the hottest, dryest country in the world.

Mass Force push as in the Jedi all doing a Force push, hence "mass" Force push, like a mass gathering.
Oh, ok I thought you meant a really large push, like a large one, not a bunch of small ones.

Stormtroopers were apparently well trained and got mind tricked in ANH. Oh, and Luke's Force illusions worked on Caedus. Therefore, Luke could trick Roman scouts into seeing Jedi in places that they aren't, luring away Roman armies guarding, say, Rome.
hypothetical. another scenario that's not even close to believeable.

Jedi have been shown to block blaster bolts from multiple directions. Blocking sword stikes would be relatively easy, and a Jedi's lightsaber could easily cut through a gladius.
yes, but no jedi can block simultaneous sword strikes from every angle.
The Romans simply can't stop the Force. How are they going to get past a Jedi formation using Force push?
Says you. Bows, lances, throwing spears. ETC. Surround the jedi. Also, force push=/= lethal and there being 1.4 milliion romans, they could just surround them and wait. the Jedi will fall asleep or die of hunger some time.

One Free Man Restricted

Also, look at fett. Killed 6 jedi with his bare hands. Now you'd think jedi could defeat a bare-handed elite warrior by blocking his strikes.

what makes the extremely fit, experienced, and elite romans any different?

Vorpal Ruin Jedi Master

Originally posted by One Free Man
Also, look at fett. Killed 6 jedi with his bare hands. Now you'd think jedi could defeat a bare-handed elite warrior by blocking his strikes.

what makes the extremely fit, experienced, and elite romans any different?

Isn't this a perfect example of one of the very unlikely things that you are discrediting happening?

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

I have provided evidence that Jedi can survive in the Sahara long enough to find other people. You haven't given evidence that Jar Jar Binks is Force sensitive; having good abilities (but I don't know where you got Jar Jar Binks having pre cog from) is present in SW (and real life as well, of course) people that aren't Force sensitive.

And how is that scenario "not even close to believable"? What flaws are there in it?

And the Romans generally fought in close formations where the other guys would attack the Romans. The Romans would block with their shield and then impale the guy attacking him. This technique wouldn't work against the Jedi.

Oh, and bows and other ranged weapons that the Roman had could be Force pushed back or, since Jedi can deflect blaster bolts (which move far faster and are more powerful than, say, Roman javelins), blocked. Heck, the Jedi can even dodge them. Surrounding the Jedi wouldn't work since the Jedi could Force push a part of the Roman formation, knocking the Romans down and scattering their formation long enough for the Jedi, who are very fast, to escape.

Luke alone killed thousand of YV warriors (if you counter this by saying that he used a Battle Meld, then I can counter by saying that he can use a Battle Meld again in this scenario; what stops him from doing that?) in TUF. A YV warrior is more powerful than a Roman legionary by A LOT. The Romans wouldn't send ALL of their forces at the Jedi at once as there would be several problems with doing that. What stops Luke from cloaking himself and soloing any Roman army that tries to attack the Jedi?

Romans attack, Jedi mass Force push the Romans. Eventually the Romans would give up and leave with concussions. Another Roman army comes, and the Jedi mass Force push again.

Or they could snipe the leaders of Roman armies that try and attack them, although that might not be very Jedi like.

Besides, the Romans would probably bow down to the Jedi and worship them as gods upon seeing their powers.

truejedi Senior Member

It occurs to me that this thread is against the rules.

Perhaps my key to finding out the winner of Shaq vs. the Bear would have been to make it a legion of shaq's vs. a legion of bears.

Kinda like Earth Vs. Star Wars is against the rules, and IT was never closed.