X-Force: Counter Terrorism Unit or Murders?

Originally posted by Deadline
I don't need to read it again you're missing the point. Vampires are considered to be dead because they lack something which keeps human beings alive, a soul. If a soul leaves a normal human being he dies, thats not the case with vampires but that doesn't mean they're dead. Vampires are alive they are just different. Robots and androids don't have souls either, are they dead?

You could have a lifeform that is a mass of gelatin. If its intelligent, has emotions and feels pain killing it is still murder.

vampires are undead. that's a fact in almost every incarnation of the mythology. they aren't alive.

deadman had sentience and intelligence, but he was dead. actually dead.

besides, even if you wanted to argue that, you're talking about your opinion, not fact.

Im not talking about that im talking about Gotham City and the whole world. Joker has still killed alot of people.

and batman has saved more. if batman kills one person, everyone he could save in the future doesn't get saved. batman has saved the multiverse.

That doesn't change the fact that Batman would be even more pissed off if Nightwing + Robin + Cassie were killed. That was my point.

i didn't disagree with that.

Logic. If he nearly Killed Alexander then something worse would need to happen in order for him to kill him and that worse thing is murder.

but you don't know if he would do it. you can't prove that he would.

No he wasn't fine. Im not going to go through all those examples but some of those examples may have less of an effect due to the context of the situation. At any rate things can have a cumulative effect, somebody can be fine but constant tragedy can eventually make them brutal. Cyclops has always been calculated but not in a brutal fashion, hes just adapting to the circumstances in his own way. [/B]

cyclops has been through worse than what he went through at the end of messiah complex, and been perfectly capable of carrying on as leader of the x-men without resorting to the kinds of things he's done in the last year or two.

things can have a cumulative effect, but a complete shift in personality isn't what he would have had. this isn't an extension of his character. it's a complete change to try and make him "cool" to all the kids who want their heroes to be anti-heroes.

Originally posted by -Pr-
vampires are undead. that's a fact in almost every incarnation of the mythology. they aren't alive.

deadman had sentience and intelligence, but he was dead. actually dead.

besides, even if you wanted to argue that, you're talking about your opinion, not fact.

I see what you mean, but you understand that killing something sentient is murder? Killing Deadman would still be murder.

Originally posted by -Pr-

and batman has saved more. if batman kills one person, everyone he could save in the future doesn't get saved. batman has saved the multiverse.

He would have saved more if he killed Joker.

Originally posted by -Pr-

but you don't know if he would do it. you can't prove that he would.

The point is based on logic its more likely. Im pretty sure the logic im using can be used as proof.

Originally posted by -Pr-

cyclops has been through worse than what he went through at the end of messiah complex, and been perfectly capable of carrying on as leader of the x-men without resorting to the kinds of things he's done in the last year or two.

things can have a cumulative effect, but a complete shift in personality isn't what he would have had. this isn't an extension of his character. it's a complete change to try and make him "cool" to all the kids who want their heroes to be anti-heroes.

I don't agree people in the real world can start of as passive and can become more brutal. I don't see how Cyke is any different.

Originally posted by Deadline
I see what you mean, but you understand that killing something sentient is murder? Killing Deadman would still be murder.

that's your opinion, and that's fine. i don't agree, but i have no problem with that.

He would have saved more if he killed Joker.

no, he wouldn't, because he'd be in prison, and the millions he's saved since would have died.

The point is based on logic its more likely. Im pretty sure the logic im using can be used as proof.

not to me. batman has been tempted to kill before, and has resisted the temptation. that's experience. he knows how to deal with the urge. while it's conceivable that you're right, and i have no issue with that, it's not proof to me.

I don't agree people in the real world can start of as passive and can become more brutal. I don't see how Cyke is any different.

people in the real world also have some sort of underlying psychosis, or have a psychotic break, a trigger of sorts.

cyclops didn't have that in messiah complex. his character had actually just been developed some more as someone who was finally comfortable in his role as leader while still being what he was. it was matt fraction that changed that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
that's your opinion, and that's fine. i don't agree, but i have no problem with that.

Originally posted by Creshosk
What would be your opinion on the morality of killing an entity like Data?

Yeah I was getting to that....I got this Cresh! durhulk

Originally posted by Creshosk
What would be your opinion on the morality of killing an entity like Data?

"Unless he's made out of parts of old dead people its still murder."

The X-Men aren't the same team they were when Cyclops was a teenager. They are no longer a peace keeping and public relations team out to garner good press by fighting evil mutants. They are focus solely on the protection and survival of the handful mutants left. Their mission statement has been completely revised in the last decade, it's pretty foolish to think that their method's wouldn't evolve as well. Cyclops' is a different leader than Professor X and he is fighting a different battle, there is no room for him to be the same person he was when he was 15.

If Cyclops hadn't adapted to the situation at hand someone else less capable would have had to step up and take his place... so he adapted. Scott Summer's isn't a "peace time" or a "war time" leader, he is a leader... period. It's easy for people not in a position of power, like Beast, to put on the Monday morning quarterback hat and talk out of his ass, because he has the luxury of his decisions not mattering but Cyclops' choices have repercussions for an entire species. He's done what he's had to do, not what he wanted to do but when you are in charge what is necessary sometimes supersedes what is right. Real leaders make the hard choices, thats what Cyclops has done.

Some people are just upset he is no longer the stagnant 2 dimensional cardboard stand in for Clark Kent he used to be. He got all his cub scout badges, now its time for him to be a man. 😈

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The X-Men aren't the same team they were when Cyclops was a teenager. They are no longer a peace keeping and public relations team out to garner good press by fighting evil mutants. They are focus solely on the protection and survival of the handful mutants left. Their mission statement has been completely revised in the last decade, it's pretty foolish to think that their method's wouldn't evolve as well. Cyclops' is a different leader than Professor X and he is fighting a different battle, there is no room for him to be the same person he was when he was 15.

If Cyclops hadn't adapted to the situation at hand someone else less capable would have had to step up and take his place... so he adapted. Scott Summer's isn't a "peace time" or a "war time" leader, he is a leader... period. It's easy for people not in a position of power, like Beast, to put on the Monday morning quarterback hat and talk out of his ass, because he has the luxury of his decisions not mattering but Cyclops' choices have repercussions for an entire species. He's done what he's had to do, not what he wanted to do but when you are in charge what is necessary sometimes supersedes what is right. Real leaders make the hard choices, thats what Cyclops has done.

Some people are just upset he is no longer the stagnant 2 dimensional cardboard stand in for Clark Kent he used to be. He got all his cub scout badges, now its time for him to be a man. 😈

You smacked it. 👆

The way the X-Men have been written though is awful. Scott is supposed to be a brilliant tactician yet he admits to winging most of his decisions. Plus for some reason he enjoys beating on dinosaurs for shits and giggles.

Emma Frost is a shadow of her former self. Someone should just shoot her and put her out of her misery.

Beast is a rabid dog that pees on your grave.

Ororo try as she might, is still a housewife who can't hold her own intellectually against the likes of Scott, Reed Richards and now Logan. T'challa has trained her well.

Charles Xavier is senile but in this case at least they are consistent.

I am enjoying Dr. Nemesis and Namor though.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I go by the Venture Bros definition of murder:

"Unless he's made out of parts of old dead people its still murder."

Ouch, I don't want to get a trasplant and meet you.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The way the X-Men have been written though is awful. Scott is supposed to be a brilliant tactician yet he admits to winging most of his decisions. Plus for some reason he enjoys beating on dinosaurs for shits and giggles.

Emma Frost is a shadow of her former self. Someone should just shoot her and put her out of her misery.

Beast is a rabid dog that pees on your grave.

Ororo try as she might, is still a housewife who can't hold her own intellectually against the likes of Scott, Reed Richards and now Logan. T'challa has trained her well.

Charles Xavier is senile but in this case at least they are consistent.

I am enjoying Dr. Nemesis and Namor though.

These x-men have simply migrated towards magneto's sphere of morality. Logan was never outside of it to begin with.

I wouldn't call them 'counter-terrorists' though, they're a cell devoted to the preservation and emancipation of their larger group through use of subversive violence against their persecutors. More akin to national liberation guerrilla fighters than anything else.

Originally posted by 753
I wouldn't call them 'counter-terrorists' though, they're a cell devoted to the preservation and emancipation of their larger group through use of subversive violence against their persecutors. More akin to national liberation guerrilla fighters than anything else.

I think that is a pretty accurate description of the X-Men as a whole, but I was just referring to the sub-faction of X-Force as a Counter Terrorist cell, not the entirety of the X-Men.

Originally posted by 753
These x-men have simply migrated towards magneto's sphere of morality. Logan was never outside of it to begin with.

I wouldn't call them 'counter-terrorists' though, they're a cell devoted to the preservation and emancipation of their larger group through use of subversive violence against their persecutors. More akin to national liberation guerrilla fighters than anything else.

I agree although I would add that this is not an evolution of Xavier's dream, rather a degeneration of it. 🙂

Originally posted by willRules
I agree although I would add that this is not an evolution of Xavier's dream, rather a degeneration of it. 🙂

I'd say it's more of a concision that Magneto wasn't nearly as off base as they thought he was in the early years.

Originally posted by willRules
I agree although I would add that this is not an evolution of Xavier's dream, rather a degeneration of it. 🙂

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'd say it's more of a concision that Magneto wasn't nearly as off base as they thought he was in the early years.

I still see that as a degeneration for Team Xavier. Anything less than a peaceful solution is, well a violent one. Very little middle ground there. It's debatable the X-men were on the right tracks (in terms of fulfilling Chuck's plans) before all this anyway.

Originally posted by willRules
I still see that as a degeneration for Team Xavier. Anything less than a peaceful solution is, well a violent one. Very little middle ground there. It's debatable the X-men were on the right tracks (in terms of fulfilling Chuck's plans) before all this anyway.

16 million mutants murdered at the hands of giant robots and a bald women, a mutant destroyed half of New York and started marching people into ovens while another mutant lost her marbles and warped all of reality to fit her M.O.T.T. father's image. Charle's dream was nothing more then the ramblings of a senile man. Heck Charles himself pretty much proved that his dream was a pile of crap when all his skeletons came out of the closet. There is no difference between him and some dirty hippy shouting for world peace.

The current vision is neither Charle's "dream" nor Magneto's vendetta. It's a third way, only problem is I've never seen Scott as a visionary.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
16 million mutants murdered at the hands of giant robots and a bald women, a mutant destroyed half of New York and started marching people into ovens while another mutant lost her marbles and warped all of reality to fit her M.O.T.T. father's image. Charle's dream was nothing more then the ramblings of a senile man.

Not sure if that was his fault.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Heck Charles himself pretty much proved that his dream was a pile of crap when all his skeletons came out of the closet.

Well his dream was a pile of crap but to be fair those skeletons were some retcon shit. I only know about Danger but im not sure if that makes him entirely full of shit.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not sure if that was his fault.

It's not his fault but he was naive. His vision didn't account for events such as those sending human/mutant relations back to the stone age.

Well his dream was a pile of crap but to be fair those skeletons were some retcon shit. I only know about Danger but im not sure if that makes him entirely full of shit. [/B]

X-Men TAS misrepresented Charles gravely. Charles was a complete bastard in Uncanny X-Men 1. Sure there's no crime in being a grumpy old man who is still grieving over the loss of his legs but he used to mindwipe people left right and centre. Plus sending a bunch of very green teenagers to fight Magneto would be seen as pretty ridiculous thing to do in this day and age. Also when he recruited his O5 he did everything and anything to get them to join the team. Went even as far to mindwipe Beasts parents. Charles was not a nice man in those early issues.

Then comes the long list of retcons from X-Men Hidden years to Deadly Genesis.