MOst Powerful Mutant

Originally posted by RLAAMJR.
I think, White Phoenix of the Crown Jean Grey is not being an omega level mutant, though she is the most powerful among mentioned.

The Phoenix is a cosmic entity and did not make Jean omega in the first place. Please do correct me if i'm wrong with my opinion.

It was established within the New X-men series about 6 years back that Jean Grey is a Phoenix because that is the pinnacle of her mutation, to wield the Phoenix power. The Phoenix isn't just something that comes and possesses Jean Grey, its a part of her genetics to be connected with the Force.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was established within the New X-men series about 6 years back that Jean Grey is a Phoenix because that is the pinnacle of her mutation, to wield the Phoenix power. The Phoenix isn't just something that comes and possesses Jean Grey, its a part of her genetics to be connected with the Force.

But a lot has been able to connect to the phoenix force. Besides, the phoenix entity is still a different entity and without it, Jean grey wouldn't be that powerful.

Some cosmic beings have amplified and even added powers on some mutants.

* correct me if wrong, but as far as i recall, even without PF, Jean Grey was stated to have a potential so surpass Xavier's level (in telepathy) and her telekinesis is very strong too... or is it just stated because PF is already residing in her? oh, whatever! 😛

Originally posted by RLAAMJR.
But a lot has been able to connect to the phoenix force. Besides, the phoenix entity is still a different entity and without it, Jean grey wouldn't be that powerful.

Some cosmic beings have amplified and even added powers on some mutants.

What you dont seem to be understanding is there is a difference between simply being possessed by the Phoenix Force and it being your mutant ability to tap into the Phoenix Force.

Jean Grey always has a connection with the Force because it is in her genetics to do so. Jean Grey always has Phoenix potential, however she doesnt always manifest Phoenix powers because she doesnt always have Phoenix work to do so they lie dormant. Thats what was established in the New X-men run 2003 to 2004 and further supported in the Endsong book.

To be a true Phoenix like Jean or Rachel as opposed to being temporarily just possessed by it,(like Emma Frost and the Cuckoos) it is part of your mutant ability at times of crisis to access your Phoenix potential. Phoenix potential is as stated on panel "the ultimate mutation".

Having the ability to telekinetically control every atom that makes up the 616 universe makes her beyond the abstracts who are just aspects of the universe she can mould like putty and beyond a universal scale reality manipulator like Wanda who granted can create just about anything she can imagine within a universe, but thats basically just giving an already existing reality a new coat of paint, putting a new theme in place and within a reality. A Phoenix goes much further than that and controls the fundamental building blocks of reality, its very atoms and she can do so with the universe in the palm of her hand because she operates on a much higher level of existence. 🙂

Originally posted by peejayd
* correct me if wrong, but as far as i recall, even without PF, Jean Grey was stated to have a potential so surpass Xavier's level (in telepathy) and her telekinesis is very strong too... [b]or is it just stated because PF is already residing in her? oh, whatever! 😛 [/B]

Its Jean Greys mutant ability to wield the Phoenix Force. She has vast psionic powers that have "Phoenix potential". So she's always a psi of the 1st order and on average was second only to Xavier in psi talent. However when she taps into her Phoenix potential, she's the greatest psi power in existence. 🙂

Wanda easily. She actually smokes all of them mentioned in the poll combined.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Wanda easily. She actually smokes all of them mentioned in the poll combined.

Not in the slightest bro. Come on Xp you know better than that.

It seems in my long absence youve been corrupted. I typed a long post in this thread about why she has been overrated. Read it 😉

I did read it and I did vote for Jean in this poll in this thread, but because there is no Wanda.

Wanda was just too much. As I remember, she didn't use Chaos Wave to put Omniverse back with a thought. And seeing how pretty no one was match against her power. And narrator simply putting that in that time no one was match against her. And then seeing Galactus being toyed just like a bug. And then Omniverse going out and putted together again by her. 🙂

Originally posted by Xplosive
I did read it and I did vote for Jean in this poll in this thread, but because there is no Wanda.

Wanda was just too much. As I remember, she didn't use Chaos Wave to put Omniverse back with a thought. And seeing how pretty no one was match against her power. And narrator simply putting that in that time no one was match against her. And then seeing Galactus being toyed just like a bug. And then Omniverse going out and putted together again by her. 🙂

This previous post of mine deals with all of your assertions Xp and quite conclusively at that:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Abstracts like who?

I think you need to do a bit of research into what the Phoenix Force is and what the abstracts are my friend 😬

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang made sentient. The abstracts such as Eternity, Infinity, Order, Chaos, Love, Hate etc are derivative of the Big Bang.

Do not let low showings by avatars fool you into under-estimating the Force.

The most powerful avatar held 616 in the palm of her hand after materializing it there atom by atom. The abstracts are just mere aspects of 616. Unless we're talking LT here, they are no comparison.

Wanda warped the 616 universe with the aid of Pietro and Professor Xavier to co-ordinate her efforts.

As shown by Layla Miller it was an amateur and incomplete job because it was just a thin veil through which 616 could still be seen.

The warping of 616 and the subsequent "No More Mutants" spell are Wandas feats. Impressive but merely universe scale feats and nothing in comparison to Jean Grey materializing the universes in the palm of her hand. Wanda and the abstracts in relation to that would just be ants in a sandbox. 🙂

As for this so called omniversal talk and threatening the ascension, what you are referring to is the Chaos Wave. The Chaos Wave as stated in Uncanny X-men 462 was [B]TRIGGERED by Wandas warping of 616. It was not a direct creation of Wandas, it was not created, maintained and directed by Wanda. Therefore all the damage it did cannot be categorized as feats for Wanda. It was merely the leakover of Wandas reality warping through a tear in the dimensional wall of 616. There was no mention of it in the main title, it featured in a side story as it had nothing directly to do with Wanda.

Also the Chaos Wave only caused so much damage not because of any sheer power inherent to itself, but because the dimensional tear it leaked through was a doorway to Otherworld located at Excaliburs lighthouse as shown on panel. Otherworld is thanks to the Phoenix Force is connected to all realities through an energy matrix that the Phoenix established throughout the multiverse. It is a keystone of reality. So when the Chaos Wave leaked through the tear at Excaliburs lighthouse and collided with Otherworld, its compromised the structural integrity of the energy matrix causing a number of realities to collapse. If i hammered at a bridges keystone i could make the bridge collapse. Could i with as small an effort make the bridge collapse by striking it in other areas? ❌

Furthermore the Chaos Wave was only a big threat if left unchecked. Much in the same way Jubilee could go around unchecked blowing stuff up and eventually blow up the whole of the States after a time, however we know as shown Jubilee is not unstoppable. Meggan and Excalibur some pretty insignificant characters on the cosmic scale quite easily put an end to the Wave. Just to reiterate, when confronted, it was no big deal, it was only when left to run loose it was a concern.

So just to summarise:

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, the firebird avatar is a sentient manifestation of the Big Bang.

The abstracts as stated are derived from the Big Bang whose power brought everything into existence. Including the abstracts.

Wandas greatest feats are an amateur warping of 616 that Layla Miller could see through and the No More Mutants spell.

The Chaos Wave was the leakover of Wandas reality warp through a dimensional weakpoint at Excaliburs Lighthouse.

The Wave was triggered by Wanda unwittingly. It and all it did are not attributable to Wanda in as much as the damage caused by an avalanche my big mouth created could be attributed to me.

The Chaos Wave hit a keystone of reality which was why so much damage was caused.

The Wave was stopped by the sub herald level Meggan from Excalibur.

That will be all 😉 [/B]

Unless you have any new on panel evidence to bring forward then your viewpoints on Wanda just arent correct. 😬

It's just that I disagree with you this time.

Originally posted by Xplosive
It's just that I disagree with you this time.

You can disagree Xp, but if you dont have conclusive on panel proof to back up your viewpoint, then you cant present t as fact here.

As it stands, Wandas feats were warping 616 and the No More Mutants spell.

Both universal feats which do not even place her above Eternity. Eternity can and has warped reality within his own being.

The Chaos Wave conclusively was not a feat of Wandas. It was triggered by her for sure, but it was not directly created and maintained, so all it did are not attributable to Wanda so referring to it as some justification to hype Wanda up to god like proportions is illogical and non-sensical.

I have explained the Chaos Wave point in more detail in my previous posts in this same thread. Read and understand.

The points are made clearly on panel.

Your opinion to the contrary in light of that, just isnt good enough 😬

Panels of proof have been posted in this forums so many times, that it's really not necessary to post them again.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Panels of proof have been posted in this forums so many times, that it's really not necessary to post them again.

Pages from comics have been posted, youre right, but alongside them misinterpretation. The same misinterpretation that you have swallowed because it is what you want to believe.

I have quite conclusively highlighted exactly why this theory you swallowed is a misinterpretation and instead of picking apart my points and showing they are wrong, you have simply said oh no Wanda beats Phoenix because she wrecked the omniverse. That is despite the fact that i have conclusively highlighted on panel references which show that whilst Wanda triggered the damage, it was not directly caused by her meaning it is no feat of hers.

I also showed why even if the Chaos Wave was directly attributed to her(which it is not) that the wave only caused so much damage because it collided with Otherworld which is a keystone of the structure of reality. That meant with Otherworld compromised, other realities were affected.

NOT through the Wave directly going around collapsing them one by one.

NOT through the wave spreading out across all reality and collapsing a few in one go.

BUT because it hit Otherworld, weakening the structure. TRIGGERING the collapse of others. Its just like a game of Jenga, if you tap the right piece, then you can cause a big section of the whole stack of Jenga pieces to fall.

So your comments about how Galactus and the abstracts were tossed around like nothing is irrelevant. It had nothing directly to do with Wanda. The collision with Otherworld made some of those alternate realities collapse. I explained this:

Otherworld is thanks to the Phoenix Force is connected to all realities through an energy matrix that the Phoenix established throughout the multiverse. It is a keystone of reality. So when the Chaos Wave leaked through the tear at Excaliburs lighthouse and collided with Otherworld, its compromised the structural integrity of the energy matrix causing a number of realities to collapse. If i hammered at a bridges keystone i could make the bridge collapse. Could i with as small an effort make the bridge collapse by striking it in other areas? :NO:

Xp. Your viewpoint is based on someone elses poor reading of a comic book and you have just swallowed their version. Their version if you properly read the comic and not just look at the pretty pictures, is wrong. There are many statements in the comic that explain exactly why theyre wrong. Read my posts in this thread properly and then read the comic again and then get back to me 🙂

I think you are wrong this time. Wanda actually put Omniverse back with a thought, Chaos Wave didn't have anything to do with it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I think you are wrong this time. Wanda actually put Omniverse back with a thought, Chaos Wave didn't have anything to do with it.

Xp instead of telling me your theories, why dont you refer in detail to these actual feats and what issues they happened in so i can take a look at myself.

Im an avid comic reader and as far as i have seen, the only cosmic scale feats Wanda is responsible for are warping reality in 616 and the "No More Mutants" spell.

Very powerful, nothing that places her above Eternity though. Eternity can warp reality on a universal scale, so can cosmic cubes, so can Celestials and many more.

Reply with either a scan or an issue number and the page this feat is described and shown on and then we can get started 🙂

Hope potentially since her powerset is having every single mutant power(Including Wanda) at their maximum. Followed by Wanda.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hope potentially since her powerset is having every single mutant power(Including Wanda) at their maximum. Followed by Wanda.

Speculation.

That wasnt confirmed anywhere.

Wanda has done nothing greater than universal scale reality manipulation, therefore she is not even beyond Eternity, let alone the White Crown Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Speculation.

That wasnt confirmed anywhere.

Wanda has done nothing greater than universal scale reality manipulation, therefore she is not even beyond Eternity, let alone the White Crown Phoenix.

Hope:

Wanda's "No more mutants" spell effected mutants in other timelines until Hope came along. Her spell the second time round was also more then universal, there's really no arguing anything else if you've been following the X-Men. The entire premise of MC was that there was no more mutants until Hope came along. And only two timelines were depicted having them afterwards (This is of course barring Claremonts Exiles). Regardless her spell effected more then 616.

Until some mutant can do what Wanda did, putting and recreatting an Omniverse with a thought, then Wanda stays at the top.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hope:

Wanda's "No more mutants" spell effected mutants in other timelines until Hope came along. Her spell the second time round was also more then universal, there's really no arguing anything else if you've been following the X-Men. The entire premise of MC was that there was no more mutants until Hope came along. And only two timelines were depicted having them afterwards (This is of course barring Claremonts Exiles). Regardless her spell effected more then 616.

Hope has so far manifested about 5 powers of mutants not particularly significant in the scheme of things. Theres no justification to consider her in threads such as this quite yet. But youre right potentially if her power works as it seems, then she can be one of the most powerful. Isnt it great that shes a Phoenix 😱

Now on to Wanda 🙂

Wandas spell was NOT cast directly across the entire multiverse. Wandas spell was applied to 616, however due to the multiversal structure of Marvel, this change to 616 had an effect on alternate future timelines as you've illustrated. Thank you.

The nature of Marvel reality is that you have the core reality that is 616 and from this main timeline alternates spring off:

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These alternates arise usually from artificial intervention. Attempts to change history from its set path. These alternate realities are branches off of a main trunk, what makes them diverge is an altered event. With that in mind, these alternate realities are the same as 616 or should i say are 616 up until this point of divergence. Wanda didnt simply change an event, she changed the properties of 616. She made the x gene inert. With that in mind, any reality that is truly an alternate reality of 616 would have been affected. That goes without question. If a reality isnt affected by such a wide reaching change to the characteristics of 616 then it is not an alternate reality it is a parallel reality. There is a difference, one Marvel has defined:

Alternate Earth

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Parallel Earth

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An alternate reality can refer to a divergent reality and a parallel reality. A parallel universe is unaffected by alterations to 616 and can have different properties and origins. A divergent universe is the mainstream reality up to its point of divergence. As stated, (with the possible exception of misnamed realities), there are no parallel realities within Marvel.

With that in mind, just to reiterate, a change to the characteristics of 616 is going to affect its divergent realities. If it doesnt, they arent divergent. Parallel universes dont exist in Marvel.

The No More Mutants change meant from that point onwards the x gene for the most part was inert. Therefore understandably, alternate or more specifically divergent realities stemming from 616 from this point would be affected by Wandas spell.

NOT a direct multiversal application, but a universal one, that was carried across to alternate realities because of the nature of Marvels multiverse 🙂