GalacticStorm
Smart Alec Know-It-All
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
All speculation. Hope has the potential to manifest the PF it's abilities and abilities and feats that the PF has yet to show it can compete with like Wanda's warp.
Its not just speculation that Hope is a Phoenix when she is born in the way of a Phoenix, she manifests its signature and has the appearance of the Forces previous hosts. Nope, thats strong possibility and explicit suggestion from Marvel.
What is not speculation is that the Phoenix Force encompasses all life and it is the driving force behind evolution, what is not speculation is that its hosts can manifest and power and generate any energy they want in any conceivable amount. That is canon. Hope has not displayed any abilities beyond an avatars powerset and given that the Force encompasses all life its inconceivable that she could.
You're interpreting the phrase a Phoenix and then some in a particular way that defies common sense, logic and canon. There are other interpretations that dont require overlooking continuity. Acknowledge them.
As for Phoenix not having any feats beyond Wandas warp, thats simply not true. What do you define as Wandas warp? If you mean the creation of House Of M, then that doesnt even place her above Eternity. Eternity can warp the reality of 616 to his choosing as can many universal artifacts.
If you mean the Chaos Wave, in this thread already i have shown you why it is not a feat of Wanda's so read the thread and if you have any additional evidence to bring forward then do so, but it is conclusively not Wandas direct creation and all the damage it did was as a result of it colliding with Otherworld. All resultant damage was a domino effect, the wave itself never collapsed all of those realities one by one or even simutaneously. It hit the keystone, which compromised the structure, causing some realities to collapse.
The Wave was easily stopped by Excalibur showing you conclusively that the Wave itself was no great cosmic power that was beyond everyones ability to combat. Its threat was that it hit without warning, however it was easily ended. Not a feat of Wandas. Even if it was attributed to her for arguments sake, the way it was stopped and the fact that it was just Meggan who stopped it shows conclusively the Wave when confronted and with warning of its existence, could easily have been halted by a number of characters.
The No More Mutants spell we are debating 🙂
Jeans feat of manipulating the universe atoms in the palm of her hand without breaking a sweat, is far beyond Wanda bringing about HOM with the mental co-ordination of Professor Xavier and the emotional support of Pietro. Wanda said she couldnt do so easily in Avengers and that she doubted her ability to keep control.
So you have going all out and manipulating "the theme" of a universe and being out of sight no doubt so as to maintain control of things, versus manipulating all that is the universes right down to its component atoms within the palm of your hand. Compared to that Wanda and her machinations are like a little sandbox of ants within Jeans hand. Leagues of difference.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
WOTPC had to carry out her Phoenix work from inside the nexus of realities. There is no evidence to show whether or not she could carry out that feat without being in there.
This is speculation from yourself. There was no evidence from that scene or any part of that arc that Jean Grey got some unmentioned powerup from stepping into the M'kraan crystal. No reference, no artistic depiction. Thats just your speculation to try and impede an otherwise unstoppable feat.
In the scene itself it was stated clear as day that Jean achieved the feat through her telekinesis. With no mention or depiction of any powerup your point is completely unsupported and without merit.
Throughout the New X-men arc the Phoenix Forces ability to grant unrivaled "telekinetic godhood" was mentioned time and time again. There was conversations about Jean being able to move matter around creating her own universes, which Jean acknowledged but said thats not her role. There was talk of the Beast using his Phoenix gained telekinetic godhood to takeover all creation. All of which gave precedence for Jeans feat in the last issue of the arc.
Your point is unsupported artistically or by statement. Whereas the scope of Jeans power is hinted at throughout the series before the feat, only for us to be told that Jean is manipulating the atoms of the universe telekinetically.
No more needs to be said on the matter.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not necessarily, not if the spell transfered laterally. Which was how Wanda's chaos wave moved IRRC.Instead of coming up with ways to try and explain how "illogical" the panels are why don't you try and explain what is there. Those panels are canon, she warped realities inherently different to 616. And the Shadow Kings words reiterate this.
Also marvels definition of it's timeline changes. According to Bendis Avengers it's circular. So I wouldn't put too much faith in time travel laws that keep getting broken like Kangs law.
Also here's Marvels definition of the Multiverse.
http://img178.imageshack.us/f/altuhb2005streetsamuraifr6.jpg
But again I wouldn't put too much faith in definitions that change depending on the writer.
Once again you have provided nothing that conclusively shows Wanda did anything but directly warp 616, resulting in the spell weaving its way through reality as a result of the nature of a multiverse. Nothing.
You have shown nothing that states the universes depicted were parallel realities, you have shown nothing that refutes my point. It is still very possible that the glimpses we were shown were far enough in the future to account for any differences in the characters of these alternate realities, from how they were prior to the point of divergence.
As for your Shadow King evidence, that doesn't say that the spell was cast across all realities. It says the spell was cast"reality shifted" and then as a result cracks formed across the multiverse which facilitated his re-entry. Cracks from what? The spell or the resultant de-powering which had other effects. Inconclusive. Plus the Shadow King is no omniscient.
Dr Strange verifies the range of the spell being across worlds and dimensions, that never was in any doubt. What is in doubt and what remains inconclusive is whether the spell affected those outside of 616 directly or as a result of 616 being a part of a multiverse facilitating the spell reaching all divergent realities.
We know Wandas spell wasnt cast into the past because she would've just created an alternate reality as per Marvel canon. If the spell didnt encompass the past then it didnt encompass literally the entire multiverse. What would make sense according to Stranges and Forges findings is that Wanda cast her spell on to 616 and it wove its way into all divergent realities, which could understandably be referred to as all there is within the present.
