Originally posted by cdtm
Which peak showings?You can account for holding back, but there also has to be a reason to believe Superman is > a planet busting 100 c traveling character. (I do think Supermans durability is on Glads level though, if not above..)
Well go ahead lecture me. Show me Glads top feats under each criteria.
Originally posted by cdtm
Which peak showings?You can account for holding back, but there also has to be a reason to believe Superman is > a planet busting 100 c traveling character. (I do think Supermans durability is on Glads level though, if not above..)
Durability? Naah; you must forgot about the scene where Glads was hit with a blast that had enough power to shed a solar system point blank range in the face and flew out of it AND contained it without a scratch on his body?
Originally posted by cdtm
I'm not trying to lecture you, just wondering what feats you're going off of.What do you consider Supermans top feats?
Durability
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08c.jpg
Strength
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02b.jpg
Speed
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Superman-Lex2000a.jpg
Striking Power
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116d.jpg
Originally posted by "Id"
I favor Superman because of these feats, and good showing against powerful oppositions.Durability
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/DeathOfTheNewGods08c.jpgStrength
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Trinity02b.jpgSpeed
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/Superman-Lex2000a.jpgStriking Power
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/ManOfSteel116d.jpg
I was VERY impressed by the planets colliding and Superman living from it feat when I first saw it and I still am. Thats still not better than Glads taking a solar system destroying blast in the face with damage at all.
Speed; no speed was given and Im pretty sure that was an indication of him going faster than light in space. Gladiator have a statement, a statement of him flying at 100 times the speed of light.
Striking power scan, that wasnt Superman that created that impact in that scan.
As for Superman moving a small pocket solar system, well, he was pushing against gravity in that scan and there is no telling how much force he was pushing against. If it was EXTREME force then the city would have been destroyed. I am thinking you are reading a little too much into that scan.
Originally posted by carver9
Durability? Naah; you must forgot about the scene where Glads was hit with a blast that had enough power to shed a solar system point blank range in the face and flew out of it AND contained it without a scratch on his body?
Didn't see that one. Source? Tyrants a big one though...
Tanking a solar system blast is impressive, but Supes has a list of pretty impressive feats: surviving being in the middle of a sun eater collapsing for one (And while it triggered a time jump, there's evidence he was still taking the brunt of each explosion), being in the middle of New Genesis and Apokolips colliding, and taking the energies from the Source Wall collapsing which were powerful enough to bend reality, as Metron claimed The Source didn't shield Supes body from what was happening..
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
[B]Actually, I think you missed some of the better feats that the Worldmind has shown.
I don't think so. I've been reading since the first Annihilation One Shot. I just think you're overestimating the role Worldmind plays in coming up with strategies to defeat his various foes.
And that makes a lot of sense, given the basic tenants of storytelling. Namely, who wants to read about a character who is getting fed all of his strategies by a calculating super computer?
One example is in Annihilation: Conquest, it allowed a basic Nova Centurion to outmaneuver and ultimately trap the Nova Prime via the use of clever timing, tactical and situational analysis as well as knowing at almost pinpoint precision/detail the schematics of an entire alien environment (allowing her to use the environment against him). It's been able to work independently to support its host in times of crisis (such as when Rider got fried and needed to be hidden to be given time to heal, he reached out and deputized someone).
Sure, and I have no doubt that the Worldmind is capable of helping Rich enact strategys more effectively, nor is anyone arguing that. But this idea that in and of itself it's this tactical engine that is going to advise the team on how best to attack their foes, how to exploit weaknesses, etc is unfounded. We've already seen what happens when Rich goes up against a Supergirl level foe in Xenith and, yeah, he was able to use weakness exploitation for the win, but it had absolutely nothing to do with Worldmind. The tension of the series is very often Rich going directly AGAINST what the Worldmind tells him to do, and pulling it off anyway.
The main difference between the Worldmind and MB is that the WM is a separate sentient entity complete with its own unique personality, knowledge (w/c he shares with his host), memories, experiences and insight on every situation.
I tried to make it clear in another post, but obviously it didn't come through -- the Mother Box is all of this as well. It is sentient (a sentient computer, just like Worldmind). The difference is in appearance, rather than nature, as Mother Box communicates telepathically while Worldmind is verbal. So you, as a reader, can more fully relate/interface with the idea of Worldmind, but Mother Box's abilities are a little more hidden since you only ever get to 'hear' the other side of the conversation.
A second set of eyes and ears (and a myriad of sensors/scanners as well) as well as something that helps manage the whole Nova Force and his mental/bodily functions.
Surely you're not trying to argue that the Worldmind has better scanners than Mother Box as well?
The Surfer has been able to duplicate these feats as well on his own. But there is a stark difference between being fed all the information you need versus having someone watch your back and objectively advise you on every situation as well as feed you info.
But I've already told you, that is exactly what Mother Box does. Mother Box will tell you that you are in danger, that you've got incoming, or that everything is fine. It will help you get out of the situation, it will advise you, it will scold you for doing wrong or making the wrong decision.
The Surfer's scanning/tactical abilities are like a Green Lanterns. It's pure information, you get an answer to whatever question you pose. Mother Box is very similar to Worldmind.
Rider is not the same inexperienced rookie that he used to be. I think I'll go as far as to say that he's one of the most tactically savvy superheroes out there, using his mind (and subtle uses of the Nova Force) to defeat a lot of his more powerful foes rather than just simply brute force.
I won't go that far, but I'll acknowledge that he has come a long way.
And that goes to my point -- Worldmind, at this point, really just feeds Nova information about what is going on. Yes, it's a second pair of eyes (one with scanners and what not), but that's no different than what Mother Box is for Orion and Mr. Miracle.
Originally posted by dmills
The WM has empowered, managed and coordinated thousands of centurians, all while running the entire planet of Xandar. It can give not only Nova, but also everyone on the team tactical backing.
Has it ever actually done that to people without deputizing them as Nova Corps members first? I don't think that it has. Meanwhile, Mother Box HAS hyper evolved Oracle's communication to give them all instant radiotelepathic contact and coordination.
And if you're saying that Nova is about to deputize everyone, I'd bring up that Hal could just create more GL rings.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but whether or not he "used it in a combat situation" kinda depends on how you define the concept. I mean the guys weren't right there with him when he set off the blast because he left combat to have a final moment with Airwalker, but unless I'm remembering wrong they were in pursuit of Surfer and they did fly out of the blackhole that formed afterwards so they did get hit by it.
Right, he didn't use it in combat, he did it to create a memorial for his friend.
It's the intent.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Capabilities-wise they seem similar. But the realtime tactical support provided by the WM has been shown to be far more effective. Sure, the MB has more frills, more versatile abilities and can do a lot of what the WM can do. But not at the level that the WM does it. A Military Supercomputer might not have the same features as an iphone, but it's better at what it does.Sigh. Just show an instance where the MB has been able to affect the outcome of a battle thru tactical savvy that a person 1/1000th the power of another wins the fight primarily because of how the MB guided it.
1/100oth of the power? Where did that figure come from?
Anyway, here's an example of Mother Box giving Orion the win over a relic weapon of the Old Gods. 100% Mother Box figuring it out and accomplishing the task.
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/jkfw-11-14.jpg
Originally posted by DesaadLantern rings can create a copy to deputize another Lantern as a Blackest Night contingency. That contingency was triggered by Ganthet, who has created rings on his own before. Blackest Night is over.
Has it ever actually done that to people without deputizing them as Nova Corps members first? I don't think that it has. Meanwhile, Mother Box HAS hyper evolved Oracle's communication to give them all instant radiotelepathic contact and coordination.And if you're saying that Nova is about to deputize everyone, I'd bring up that Hal could just create more GL rings.
Were GLs capable, much less aware, of this deputization ability outside of Blackest Night, they would have used it by now. For example, on their mission to save Kyle during Sinestro Corps War, Hal's ring was almost completely exhausted by Henshaw's Manhunters. Stewart, Gardner, Tomar, Graf had well-charged rings and did not replicate a ring for Hal to use. Hal ended up having to wield YL rings.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
GL's can't teleport. Otherwise, that notion wouldn't have been outright stated by GLs and the Indigo Tribe during Blackest Night. If GLs could teleport they wouldn't be caught in nearly half of the messes they find themselves in.
And yet there are numerous examples of GL's being able to teleport, throughout history and continuity. Many more so than there are of Silver Surfer, for instance. Yes, both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they could teleport, just like both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they turned their foes into cupcakes, brought those cupcakes to cosmic space jail, and then turned them back into people again.
But they don't do that, because that would be boring. The fact remains, Hal has shown - in every incarnation of the character - the ability to teleport.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/101bed38.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Hal%20Jordan2/J_L_of_A_212-19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg044.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg045.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/JLSpectacular1-27.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg065.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/GLLegacy_pg047.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/gl172_14.jpg
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/Hal%20Jordan%203/28.jpg
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/Hal%20Jordan%203/30.jpg
http://s635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/Hal%20Jordan%203/?action=view¤t=BB16p02.jpg
Hal's about precision and doing precisely what's needed to get the job done. That doesn't make you more combat effective in a fight unless you're actually capable of getting the job done.
Which he is.
And Surfer's superior versatility and sheer power differential make him far more capable of getting jobs done.
Surfer doesn't have superior versatility, and the power differential - especially as demonstrated by 1v1 confrontations - is not great.
"Crippling" was an understatement. Most GLs get completely knocked unconscious due to feedback. And against a foe like Surfer, feedback from his constructs shattering will make a difference.
Getting knocked unconscious from construct destruction, or even getting feedback from construct destruction, is not a consistent facet of the characters. It may come into play, it may not. Surfer getting distracted and knocked out may come into play as well, it may not.
You mean like how Surfer habitually uses his board to hit his foes from behind?
So it's consistent when Surfer does it, what, 4 times? But teleportation isn't an ability Hal has when I can give you well over 10?
Yeah, absolutely no bias here.
Against Barry? When they're not really fighting? Who he knows like his own brother? I hope you're not going to cite him chaining up Zoom for all of two seconds before Zoom escapes. Superspeed > GLs.
Against Barry, when one of them is being mindcontrolled (Hal, I believe) in the Silver Age. Against Barry when Barry is upset and goes charging and SPECIFICALLY moves too fast to be caught by Superman (who has Super speed) and Hawkman (who does not). Against Professor Zoom (not Zoom), who is impersonating Barry and who Hal is using kid gloves on due to it being Barry. And Against random villain speedsters.
Not on Surfer's level. Tangent Flash did it too recently. Only time I've seen Hal turn Dr. Light's own power on him was pre-Crisis. I can't remember the last time a GL beat an energy manipulator at his own game of energy manipulation. Obviously the writers define what GLs can or cannot do. But whether or not you think it's fair, GLs inability to teleport has been made clear for the past decade or more. I'm not going to waste time arguing this point.
I just gave you a post crisis example of Dr. Light being unable to manipulate Hal's energy. Shall I give you examples of characters who have proven capable of absorbing Surfer's?
If you don't want to admit that GL's can teleport, that's fine. There is nothing I can do about that. But to go against a bulk of evidence that great, is there any point in even continuing this?
Hulk had a long history of not being able to breathe underwater or in space. He'd even pass out. Now he can. Do we take what's current over what used to be consistent? Yes, we do.
Hulk is a constantly changing character, with "Grey", "Savage", "Professor", etc all having different base power levels, with a dynamic power level to boot.
Nice try, though.
Not applying it simply because it makes your favorite characters "weaker" or "less versatile" is a double-standard.
No. Picking only those appearances that make your opponent's character look weak is the double standard. I'm the one acknowledging the entirity of the character's continuity. Your the one dismissing anything that didn't happen last week (at least for the guy going up against your preferred character).
I don't remember Hal teleporting in Brave and the Bold. Feel free to post it, and I'll post the dozen+ scans where GLs outright state they can't teleport or had to rely on boosters/hyperspace travel to get from point A to point B.
And I'll be happy to post a thousand examples in which Surfer could have more easily gotten out of a situation by matter manipulation, but instead blasted or punched. Or, for that matter, when he travelled via flight rather than teleportation.
The fact that a character doesn't use an ability at all times does not mean that it doesn't exist. It's just the nature of writing stories, that sometimes it is better/easier for the writer to do something different.
I swear to god, from the way you're posting it's as if you believe computers write this stuff out.
Then we can weigh this evidence. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this. Show me the last time Hal transmuted matter. I'll show the dozen+ times where transmuting matter even in the most simple and basic form would have solved a GLs crisis and the scan that literally states they can't create oxygen. Then we can weigh this evidence again. That is... if you even care to engage in using proof to settle this.
I already addressed this above. I can show a multitude of instances of GL's using matter manipulation, as many ( I'd wager) as you can show the Silver Surfer. But it wouldn't matter, because you're deadset on Hal losing and Surfer winning, and nothing anyone says or shows is going to change your mind. Your stance is akin to saying that the Surfer couldn't transmute a thing because he didn't do so against Beta Ray Bill, or in his latest appearance in the Thanos Imperative.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Lantern rings can create a copy to deputize another Lantern as a Blackest Night contingency. That contingency was triggered by Ganthet, who has created rings on his own before. Blackest Night is over.Were GLs capable, much less aware, of this deputization ability outside of Blackest Night, they would have used it by now. For example, on their mission to save Kyle during Sinestro Corps War, Hal's ring was almost completely exhausted by Henshaw's Manhunters. Stewart, Gardner, Tomar, Graf had well-charged rings and did not replicate a ring for Hal to use. Hal ended up having to wield YL rings.
Sweet jesus, they've shown the ability MULTIPLE TIMES. Hal has deputlized Wally West, Hal has deputized Alan Scott, Hal gave a ring to god damn Green Arrow, Hal's ring split itself off in "Rebirth", etc.
Again, differing interpretations by differing writers.
This "only the last issue of stories counts!" notion you've got is untenable and a double standard that you don't seem to be applying to the Silver Surfer, I can't help but note.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, analogizing pre-Crisis with Silver Age Marvel stories is idiotic. Marvel never retconned their history. DC did. You reference Surfer and Thor? You have any idea how much weaker/limited they were back during the Silver Age as compared to now? Your analogy is terrible.Second, you obviously have no effing clue of the lengths that Marvel goes to, to preserve the original stories down to the smallest details. First Avengers' story in Avengers #1 involved Hulk joining a circus in clown-paint and acting like a robot to hide from the military. Avengers: The Origin -- a limited series being published right now -- literally expands on that exact plot down to the name of the robot: Mechano. Loki got beat when he changed into a radioactive state in that story where Pym simply dropped him into a lead container at the end of Avengers #1. There have been at least three stories decades later that reference and preserve and explain why that actually worked. I can cite to dozens, if not a hundred, such instances of this same type of zealous preservation for countless other stories for countless other characters for Marvel.
You continuing to reach back to pre-Crisis times only highlights and underscores the largest flaw in your argumentation: a patent disregard for anything in current stories that serves to "weaken" your favorite character despite how clearly and plainly it's portrayed, but turning right around and accepting all current stories that serve to "strengthen" your favorite character. Double-standard is double-standard anyway you slice it.
And another point to consider: DC proponents get more slack than most even bother to point out when it comes to the convoluted history of DC. There have been no less than three different Zods post-Crisis. Nobody's arguing that Superman's showings against Azzarello's Phantom Zone Zod got wiped away from continuity. Even though you justifiably could argue that Infinite Crisis and 52 retconned it so that the first time current Superman ever personally met anyone named Zod, was in Superman: Last Son. So frankly, crying victim is about the last thing pre-Crisis proponents ought to be doing.
I'm sorry, but your pick and choose continuity is the epitome of hardcore bias, and an unsustainable way to debate. Rather than take all showings and generate an average, you choose to focus on only a select few and extrapolate from there? The whole POINT of these characters, of the shared Marvel and DC universes, is that there is a rich, interconnected history that builds and builds on itself. To divest yourself of that is to miss the entire point of the shared superhero comics unvierses.
As for GL in particular, we've been over it. Not only was there an in continuity explanation for why the Green Lanterns survived unscathed, not only did we get multiple stories dealing with GL's trying to find their place after the Crisis had re-written continuity (Kilowog's planet destroyed, C'hpp having been killed at a young age, U'bx having survived by sheer force of will and technology, time travel being more difficult Post-Crisis), but we've had consistent reference to every major era of GL continuity. The GA/GL days, the Broome stories, the Wein stories, the Englehart run, it's all been referenced. Infinite Crisis went so far as to retcon the origin of the JLA and bring back the original multiverse and the original Legion of Superheroes. There can be no doubt that these stories are in continuity and, in the case of Green Lantern, have ALWAYS been in continuity.
Yes, stories get retold, origins get retold. It happened to GL, it happened to Batman (Year One), it happened to Dr. Strange (JMS's Strange), it happened to Iron Man, it happened to the Fantastic Four and it has and will happen to many others. Things get changed, sometimes big things, and that doesn't invalidate all the rest of those characters' histories.
If we can't agree on this, best to just let it lie. At this point, you've pretty well demonstrated a sincere inability to look past your own inherent biases and judge the characters based on their full, rich histories. Obviously for fear of what will come out about the Surfer.
Originally posted by DesaadFirst off, don't bother showing me any showings of Marty or Pieface or pre-Crisis showings. You can scratch half of what you scanned. Second, give me issue #s. Not all the scan links have the issue #s. Third, GLs having other capable means of taking care of a situation is a deflection. This is especialyl true when teleporting literally meant the life/death of an innocent or another GL. And the GLs couldn't get there in time, despite knowing the location. And it's literally announced that they cannot teleport in Blackest Night. Explicit, current showings supercede. And you'll be given scans of them later.
And yet there are numerous examples of GL's being able to teleport, throughout history and continuity. Many more so than there are of Silver Surfer, for instance. Yes, both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they could teleport, just like both of them could get out of a lot of jams if they turned their foes into cupcakes, brought those cupcakes to cosmic space jail, and then turned them back into people again.But they don't do that, because that would be boring. The fact remains, Hal has shown - in every incarnation of the character - the ability to teleport.
Originally posted by DesaadNot even close on both accounts.
Which he is. Surfer doesn't have superior versatility, and the power differential - especially as demonstrated by 1v1 confrontations - is not great.Getting knocked unconscious from construct destruction, or even getting feedback from construct destruction, is not a consistent facet of the characters. It may come into play, it may not. Surfer getting distracted and knocked out may come into play as well, it may not.
So it's consistent when Surfer does it, what, 4 times? But teleportation isn't an ability Hal has when I can give you well over 10? Yeah, absolutely no bias here.
Yes, it is. When it's a construct that takes massive willpower, crippling feedback constantly occurs. Hell, maintaing a construct that requires massive willpower causes terrible strain on its own.
If I show you Surfer commanding his board to whack his foes more than 4 times, what then? And don't even try with a false distinction. Your situation would be analogous if Surfer or others stated out loud that Surfer cannot control his board independently while fighting. They don't. So it's not. False distinction =/= argument for bias.
Originally posted by DesaadTry providing scans or issue #s and I'll give you the context on every single one of them. I've had this argument before.
Against Barry, when one of them is being mindcontrolled (Hal, I believe) in the Silver Age. Against Barry when Barry is upset and goes charging and SPECIFICALLY moves too fast to be caught by Superman (who has Super speed) and Hawkman (who does not). Against Professor Zoom (not Zoom), who is impersonating Barry and who Hal is using kid gloves on due to it being Barry. And Against random villain speedsters.I just gave you a post crisis example of Dr. Light being unable to manipulate Hal's energy. Shall I give you examples of characters who have proven capable of absorbing Surfer's?
You're confusing me. Hal manipulated or Hal resisted the manipulation? Trying to suggest that GLs are greater energy manipulators is laughable. Don't even waste my time.
Originally posted by DesaadAll these deflections have been addressed above. If you had Silver Surfer stating outloud or others stating around him that Surfer couldn't control his board independently, you'd have a point. Instead, you're relying on a false distinction to make an analogy. You're literally doing it wrong.
If you don't want to admit that GL's can teleport, that's fine. There is nothing I can do about that. But to go against a bulk of evidence that great, is there any point in even continuing this?Hulk is a constantly changing character, with "Grey", "Savage", "Professor", etc all having different base power levels, with a dynamic power level to boot. Nice try, though.
No. Picking only those appearances that make your opponent's character look weak is the double standard. I'm the one acknowledging the entirity of the character's continuity. Your the one dismissing anything that didn't happen last week (at least for the guy going up against your preferred character).
And I'll be happy to post a thousand examples in which Surfer could have more easily gotten out of a situation by matter manipulation, but instead blasted or punched. Or, for that matter, when he travelled via flight rather than teleportation.
The fact that a character doesn't use an ability at all times does not mean that it doesn't exist. It's just the nature of writing stories, that sometimes it is better/easier for the writer to do something different.
I swear to god, from the way you're posting it's as if you believe computers write this stuff out.
I already addressed this above. I can show a multitude of instances of GL's using matter manipulation, as many ( I'd wager) as you can show the Silver Surfer. But it wouldn't matter, because you're deadset on Hal losing and Surfer winning, and nothing anyone says or shows is going to change your mind. Your stance is akin to saying that the Surfer couldn't transmute a thing because he didn't do so against Beta Ray Bill, or in his latest appearance in the Thanos Imperative.
Originally posted by DesaadDon't be ridiculous. GLs duplicating rings is not a standard ability. You know it. I know it. That isn't in service to some plot. That's exactly how it is.
Sweet jesus, they've shown the ability MULTIPLE TIMES. Hal has deputlized Wally West, Hal has deputized Alan Scott, Hal gave a ring to god damn Green Arrow, Hal's ring split itself off in "Rebirth", etc.Again, differing interpretations by differing writers.
This "only the last issue of stories counts!" notion you've got is untenable and a double standard that you don't seem to be applying to the Silver Surfer, I can't help but note.
Just because you don't like the vast magnitude of GL comics as they are plainly presented doesn't mean you get to ignore them.
Try naming some examples where I'm not assessing any of these standards against Surfer.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]First off, don't bother showing me any showings of Marty or Pieface or pre-Crisis showings. You can scratch half of what you scanned.
hahaha, no, done. I'm not going to be forced to play by 'your' rules, false distinctions desperately trying to make your preferred character look better. You don't like the evidence I provide, tough titties.
Have a good one.
Originally posted by DesaadThere is no picking and choosing. There is Crisis on Infinite Earths and there isn't. To completely ignore that event and its ramifications is idiotic. You're not preserving a rich history that builds on itself. You're ignoring a history that was specifically retconned in the biggest storyline of DC comics EVER. You're picking and choosing specific feats despite that history redefining itself up to current day. Your aspersions of hypocrisy are quanchi-lite. Having a hypocrite call me a hypocrite is an indication I'm doing something right. Like a double-negative, almost.
I'm sorry, but your pick and choose continuity is the epitome of hardcore bias, and an unsustainable way to debate. Rather than take all showings and generate an average, you choose to focus on only a select few and extrapolate from there? The whole POINT of these characters, of the shared Marvel and DC universes, is that there is a rich, interconnected history that builds and builds on itself. To divest yourself of that is to miss the entire point of the shared superhero comics unvierses.
Originally posted by DesaadThere can be no doubt that they are not relevant anymore. Pointing out that time travel is incredibly harder after the Crisis is supposed to render Hal effortlessly time-traveling in his early adventures applicable to a debate how? It's the exact opposite. Do you not even see that? Any adventures that are shoe-horned back in are relevant and matter as they are portrayed. Otherwise, they're not relevant. We're being showed Superman's first adventures with the Legion in Action Comics now. They're really different. That doesn't reinforce the previously published pre-Crisis ones... it utterly dispels them. Furthermore, memories of events =/= current capability. Otherwise Kal-L would have been sneezing galaxies away instead of going toe-to-toe with Kal-El in Infinite Crisis.
As for GL in particular, we've been over it. Not only was there an in continuity explanation for why the Green Lanterns survived unscathed, not only did we get multiple stories dealing with GL's trying to find their place after the Crisis had re-written continuity (Kilowog's planet destroyed, C'hpp having been killed at a young age, U'bx having survived by sheer force of will and technology, time travel being more difficult Post-Crisis), but we've had consistent reference to every major era of GL continuity. The GA/GL days, the Broome stories, the Wein stories, the Englehart run, it's all been referenced. Infinite Crisis went so far as to retcon the origin of the JLA and bring back the original multiverse and the original Legion of Superheroes. There can be no doubt that these stories are in continuity and, in the case of Green Lantern, have ALWAYS been in continuity.
Originally posted by DesaadThings get changed that literally invalidate histories and feats then those histories and feats get invalidated. And stop pretending that you're pointing to analogous situations. Nobody uses classic Strange's feats when arguing current Dr. Strange in vs battles. Why would you make exceptions for characters that go through a literal retcon? You're doing it wrong.
Yes, stories get retold, origins get retold. It happened to GL, it happened to Batman (Year One), it happened to Dr. Strange (JMS's Strange), it happened to Iron Man, it happened to the Fantastic Four and it has and will happen to many others. Things get changed, sometimes big things, and that doesn't invalidate all the rest of those characters' histories.If we can't agree on this, best to just let it lie. At this point, you've pretty well demonstrated a sincere inability to look past your own inherent biases and judge the characters based on their full, rich histories. Obviously for fear of what will come out about the Surfer.
Let it lie then. Don't bother presenting pre-Crisis schlock to me. If you can't make your argument without pre-Crisis feats, you're arguments are clearly weaker than you'd care to admit.
Originally posted by DesaadIf you think showing me Marty and Pieface from Green Lantern: Last Will and Testament count as standard Green Lantern showings, then I'm accusing you right now of intentionally misleading people. Get that crap outta here before it goes any further. Also, thanks for giving me issue #s... oh wait. That's right.
hahaha, no, done. I'm not going to be forced to play by 'your' rules, false distinctions desperately trying to make your preferred character look better. You don't like the evidence I provide, tough titties.Have a good one.
Originally posted by Desaad
1/100oth of the power? Where did that figure come from?Anyway, here's an example of Mother Box giving Orion the win over a relic weapon of the Old Gods. 100% Mother Box figuring it out and accomplishing the task.
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/jkfw-11-14.jpg
Forgot about that feat. Nice.
