Cosmic Avengers vs. JLA

Started by D_Dude12109 pages

Originally posted by Desaad
1/100oth of the power? Where did that figure come from?

Anyway, here's an example of Mother Box giving Orion the win over a relic weapon of the Old Gods. 100% Mother Box figuring it out and accomplishing the task.

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/jkfw-11-14.jpg

The Nova Prime is thousands of times more powerful than an average Centurion. An average centurion managed to take down the Nova prime simply thru tactics. Heck, it was even acknowledged in the comics.

That looks like an analysis feat to me (as well as energy manip), not much in tactical skill. Surfer has done things like this many many times. Heck, GL's, too. Quasar, too. Hell, a LOT of heroes has done feats similar to this.

CA wins 9/10. The JLA might get one win when gladiator and surfer start arguing and fighting about who koed the most JLA members.

Ronan is by far the weakest link. Jla for a majority

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
The Nova Prime is thousands of times more powerful than an average Centurion. An average centurion managed to take down the Nova prime simply thru tactics. Heck, it was even acknowledged in the comics.

But Nova Prime has demonstrated himself to be vastly under powered, with access to little of the energy that a typical Nova Prime has, which is why Rich is nowhere near the level of, say, previous Nova Prime's we've seen.

That looks like an analysis feat to me (as well as energy manip), not much in tactical skill. Surfer has done things like this many many times. Heck, GL's, too. Quasar, too. Hell, a LOT of heroes has done feats similar to this.

Now hold on, you were just arguing about separating the tactical vs the energy manipulation aspect of the feats. Yes, characters like the Surfer and Quasar have manipulated energy, definitely.

But that's not important for this debate. What I just showed you was Orion basically saying "Man, I'm in a tight spot -- figure out some way to get me out of here, Mother Box!" and then Mother Box doing just that (and implementing the solution, to boot). That's exactly what you're asking for -- that kind of problem solving ability, one that goes beyond mere analysis and into strategy. And it's actually MORE than Worldmind generally does. Most of the time, Worldmind's function is, again, "Rich! To your right! Rich! To your left!" and picking up MOST issues of Nova bear that out.

Ronan is underated.

Originally posted by carver9
Ronan is underated.

and yet beatable.

Originally posted by Desaad
But Nova Prime has demonstrated himself to be vastly under powered, with access to little of the energy that a typical Nova Prime has, which is why Rich is nowhere near the level of, say, previous Nova Prime's we've seen.

I dunno... How many Nova Prime's have you actually read? Other than Supernova (who went insane), I've yet to see a Nova Prime who's accessed the Nova Force at the level Rider has.

No offense, but it doesn't look you've read that much Nova from what I've seen you posting,

In Annihilation: Conquest it was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that the Nova Prime that was being referred to as "thousands of times more powerful" was specifically Rich.

Originally posted by Desaad
Now hold on, you were just arguing about separating the tactical vs the energy manipulation aspect of the feats. Yes, characters like the Surfer and Quasar have manipulated energy, definitely.

But that's not important for this debate. What I just showed you was Orion basically saying "Man, I'm in a tight spot -- figure out some way to get me out of here, Mother Box!" and then Mother Box doing just that (and implementing the solution, to boot). That's exactly what you're asking for -- that kind of problem solving ability, one that goes beyond mere analysis and into strategy.

Energy analysis and manipulation. A high level of it, yes.

It is impressive but not at all as impressive as you're making it sound. Especially, compared to the level of energy analysis and manipulation done by some of the characters featured in this debate.

Originally posted by Desaad
And it's actually MORE than Worldmind generally does. Most of the time, Worldmind's function is, again, "Rich! To your right! Rich! To your left!" and picking up MOST issues of Nova bear that out.

Again, no offense, but you haven't really read all that much Nova have you? Especially the more recent ones....

Originally posted by -Pr-
and yet beatable.

Very true but I think he could last long enough for his other team mates to drop their opponents. It just depends on who he is pitted against.

Originally posted by carver9
Very true but I think he could last long enough for his other team mates to drop their opponents. It just depends on who he is pitted against.

the JLA have as much chance of dropping his team-mates as vice versa.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I dunno... How many Nova Prime's have you actually read?

I've read the original appearance of a Nova Prime, and recognized very obviously that the level of the Nova Prime's as seen of late is nowhere near what Supernova was capable of.

Rich isn't even Herald level, from what we've seen. At the beginning of his ongoing, he was being given trouble by Venom and Penance, for crissakes. That's hardly anything special.

Other than Supernova (who went insane), I've yet to see a Nova Prime who's accessed the Nova Force at the level Rider has.

Because with the exception of Supernova and Ryder, there has never been any character that has wielded the full Nova Force for any extended period of time. Coming in second in this case is basically coming in last.

No offense, but it doesn't look you've read that much Nova from what I've seen you posting,

Oh, right, how could I take offense to you essentially calling me a liar?

In Annihilation: Conquest it was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that the Nova Prime that was being referred to as "thousands of times more powerful" was specifically Rich.

Yeah, perhaps in potential, in the amount of energy he HELD, but not in the amount of energy he could WIELD. Again, when Nova was "Nova Prime" at the start, he was being given trouble by mid tiers still. And of course the Worldmind, who has been the keeper for the Nova Force for basically all time, is going to be able to offer some specific insights on how to defeat a foe who has the power. That's only NATURAL. That's like saying that the Mother box is going to be able to offer some insights into the Source -- it doesn't mean those insights are necessarily going to be as effective when dealing with something more familiar.

Which, again, is borne out by the issues themselves. Take a look at the Xenith fight -- it's pretty typical. Whats going on right now in the Thanos Imperative? Rich isn't getting any specific direction, he's just being told things like "This guy is incredibly powerful!" "This guy is so powerful he makes the last guy look insignificant! Run!" and then Rich says no and fights anyway. It's been that way throughout the run -- what happened when Nova was attacked by a group of Sentries? He got basic information like "We are under attack!" and "Those are kree Sentries, serial number blah blah blah"...but the actual direction and impetus for action came from Nova himself. He delivered the commands, verbally, as to how to proceed, not Worldmind. Worldmind may recommend a course of action, absolutely, but it's not very often that he gives specific strategies in the midst of battle, and even when he does they are usually basics like "Run away!", and Rich usually ignores them.

Energy analysis and manipulation. A high level of it, yes.

It's NOT just energy analysis and manipulation, though. Yes, those are the ACTIONS, but it's the problem solving that I'm specifically addressing.

Again, no offense, but you haven't really read all that much Nova have you? Especially the more recent ones....

I've already told you that I've read every Nova appearance since Annihilation, the first one. So either you're calling me a liar, and you do mean offense, or you haven't read what I've written.

Originally posted by Desaad
I've read the original appearance of a Nova Prime, and recognized very obviously that the level of the Nova Prime's as seen of late is nowhere near what Supernova was capable of.

Rich isn't even Herald level, from what we've seen. At the beginning of his ongoing, he was being given trouble by Venom and Penance, for crissakes. That's hardly anything special.

Not even herald level....! :-/

You DO know he's had an upgrade and that recently, he's being shown as a powerhouse right? Taking on Sphinx for a while, battling Xenith (though Xenith was shown to be more powerful), killing Annihilus, taking on a Technarch siredam, lobotomizing ego, taking on the fake Quasar... so many more showings that DOES NOT support this poor generalization of yours....

Originally posted by Desaad
Because with the exception of Supernova and Ryder, there has never been any character that has wielded the full Nova Force for any extended period of time. Coming in second in this case is basically coming in last.

W/c is my point. There were only really 3 on-panel Nova Primes to memory. You mentioned:

Originally posted by Desaad
But Nova Prime has demonstrated himself to be vastly under powered, with access to little of the energy that a typical Nova Prime has, which is why Rich is nowhere near the level of, say, previous Nova Prime's we've seen.

Which I state as being baseless as there are really very few Nova Primes to compare him to.

Originally posted by Desaad
Oh, right, how could I take offense to you essentially calling me a liar?

Jeez. Take a chill pill, man. I saw a lot of your opinions as incorrect generalizations borne perhaps from reading not enough Nova comics. Your current comments further reinforce this opinion.

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, perhaps in potential, in the amount of energy he HELD, but not in the amount of energy he could WIELD. Again, when Nova was "Nova Prime" at the start, he was being given trouble by mid tiers still. And of course the Worldmind, who has been the keeper for the Nova Force for basically all time, is going to be able to offer some specific insights on how to defeat a foe who has the power. That's only NATURAL. That's like saying that the Mother box is going to be able to offer some insights into the Source -- it doesn't mean those insights are necessarily going to be as effective when dealing with something more familiar.

Please read Annihilation: Conquest. There was NO special insight given to the Nova Centurion regarding the Nova force at all. It was ALL brilliant use of tactics and the environment.

Originally posted by Desaad
Which, again, is borne out by the issues themselves. Take a look at the Xenith fight -- it's pretty typical. Whats going on right now in the Thanos Imperative? Rich isn't getting any specific direction, he's just being told things like "This guy is incredibly powerful!" "This guy is so powerful he makes the last guy look insignificant! Run!" and then Rich says no and fights anyway. It's been that way throughout the run -- what happened when Nova was attacked by a group of Sentries? He got basic information like "We are under attack!" and "Those are kree Sentries, serial number blah blah blah"...but the actual direction and impetus for action came from Nova himself. He delivered the commands, verbally, as to how to proceed, not Worldmind. Worldmind may recommend a course of action, absolutely, but it's not very often that he gives specific strategies in the midst of battle, and even when he does they are usually basics like "Run away!", and Rich usually ignores them.

Let me state a few showings on tactical and analytical capabilities shown by the Worldmind in JUST ONE ISSUE of Annihilation: Conquest.

Nova Prime (Rider) vs Nova Centurion (a female Kree named Ko-rel)
-Guided her step-by-step to outmaneuver Rider in an urban environment to keep her alive long enough to pull off the plan.
-Scanned an alien environment for possible ways to take down Rider.
-Gave her almost point-by-point directions on how to lead him into a trap.
-Used insight on Rider's psyche to enrage him and force him to make mistakes.
-Balanced her internal functions to allow her to pull off maneuvers her body would not normally sustain.

All the while:

-Defending his own gestalt from being consumed by the techno-organic virus.
-Planning a secondary subconscious failsafe in case his plan to take Rider and himself out fails.
-Analyzing the virus for a possible cure to it.
-Hacking into the Phalanx databases for an escape plan in case Rider manages to break free of the influence temporarily.

This was done WITHOUT Rider directing him to. Layers of layers of autonomous planning/actions outside and beyond of what the user is capable of being aware of.

And yes, a LOT of the times Rider jumps into fights that he just can't win and the WM reminds him that he has more to live for than just winning the day and tells him to get out.

Originally posted by Desaad
It's NOT just energy analysis and manipulation, though. Yes, those are the ACTIONS, but it's the problem solving that I'm specifically addressing.

Wow. You see all that in the Orion scan yet see nothing in all the Worldmind's showings. I'm seeing a little bias here....

Originally posted by Desaad
I've already told you that I've read every Nova appearance since Annihilation, the first one. So either you're calling me a liar, and you do mean offense, or you haven't read what I've written.

Read Annihilation: Conquest. With an open mind. A lot of the good showings on the Worldmind's tactical/analytical capabilities are shown there.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Not even herald level....! :-/

You DO know he's had an upgrade and that recently, he's being shown as a powerhouse right? Taking on Sphinx for a while, battling Xenith (though Xenith was shown to be more powerful), killing Annihilus, taking on a Technarch siredam, lobotomizing ego, taking on the fake Quasar... so many more showings that DOES NOT support this poor generalization of yours....

W/c is my point. There were only really 3 on-panel Nova Primes to memory. You mentioned:

Which I state as being baseless as there are really very few Nova Primes to compare him to.

Jeez. Take a chill pill, man. I saw a lot of your opinions as incorrect generalizations borne perhaps from reading not enough Nova comics. Your current comments further reinforce this opinion.

Please read Annihilation: Conquest. There was NO special insight given to the Nova Centurion regarding the Nova force at all. It was ALL brilliant use of tactics and the environment.

Let me state a few showings on tactical and analytical capabilities shown by the Worldmind in JUST ONE ISSUE of Annihilation: Conquest.

Nova Prime (Rider) vs Nova Centurion (a female Kree named Ko-rel)
-Guided her step-by-step to outmaneuver Rider in an urban environment to keep her alive long enough to pull off the plan.
-Scanned an alien environment for possible ways to take down Rider.
-Gave her almost point-by-point directions on how to lead him into a trap.
-Used insight on Rider's psyche to enrage him and force him to make mistakes.
-Balanced her internal functions to allow her to pull off maneuvers her body would not normally sustain.

All the while:

-Defending his own gestalt from being consumed by the techno-organic virus.
-Planning a secondary subconscious failsafe in case his plan to take Rider and himself out fails.
-Analyzing the virus for a possible cure to it.
-Hacking into the Phalanx databases for an escape plan in case Rider manages to break free of the influence temporarily.

This was done WITHOUT Rider directing him to. Layers of layers of autonomous planning/actions outside and beyond of what the user is capable of being aware of.

And yes, a LOT of the times Rider jumps into fights that he just can't win and the WM reminds him that he has more to live for than just winning the day and tells him to get out.

Wow. You see all that in the Orion scan yet see nothing in all the Worldmind's showings. I'm seeing a little bias here....

Read Annihilation: Conquest. With an open mind. A lot of the good showings on the Worldmind's tactical/analytical capabilities are shown there.

Excellent analysis and spot on. Check your PM when you get a chance.

bump

Re: Cosmic Avengers vs. JLA

Originally posted by the Darkone
Cosmic Avengers

Silver Surfer
Nova
Gladiator
Quasar
Beta Ray Bill
Black Bolt

vs.

JLA

Superman
Wonder Woman
Captani Marvel
Orion
Green Lantern- Hal Jordan
Captain Atom


Bump

JLA wins especially since quasar has been turned into fodder. Oh and superman beats the shit out of surfer.

JLA wins. Ronan is a major weak link.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Ronan is the weak link, but Surfer is the top dog. And Ronan will survive longer that Sups if Surfer begin against him.

Yup...

Cosmic Avengers for the win

Originally posted by carver9
JLA wins. Ronan is a major weak link.

This. Ronan doesn't belong with the big boys.

lol @ Ronan lasting longer than Superman.

Not unless half of Ronan's team dog-piles Superman at the start.

Originally posted by -Pr-
lol @ Ronan lasting longer than Superman.

Not unless half of Ronan's team dog-piles Superman at the start.

Or if you just match SS against him

😉