"In the zone" Anakin vs. Darth Vader (OT)

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
What statement? That he displayed more offensive powers with the force? I've never denied that, but it will mean nothing in view of Anakin's way superior force powers.

Additionally, I hope you noted my opinion that zone Anakin would own Vader, despite having inferior offensive force power... I'm not arguing for Vader by any means.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
a.) Anakin didn't really show a fine technique either; it was a display of superior Force powers where Dooku (or in Luke case Vader) simply couldn't defend against the ferocious strikes anymore.

b.) It was yet again like the Anakin vs. Dooku battle: At first he held back, but then he fought for his life.

c.) Source please; "Luke became what Anakin was intended to be" seems a little vague to me. It could mean that he became the greatest Jedi ever or so; it's not necessarily a direct relation between Anakin's and Luke's battle prowess.
And even if it IS referring to his potential then Vader still gets stomped like against Luke, so I don't see your point here. 😐

Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed. Anakin had a "thermonuclear furnace" of raw force power to draw from, of which he used to overwhelm Dooku in their duel. That isn't what I am arguing. All I'm saying is that Vader simply demonstrated far superior external force prowess (TK mainly.)

Additionally, I hope you noted my opinion that zone Anakin would own Vader, despite having inferior offensive force power... I'm not arguing for Vader by any means.

It was your agreement to this,

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson014
So the main consensus is that he's a MUCH more powerful in the force, but in sabers? not so much...

Now that I think about it there really aren't superior showings of TK for Vader. His only shot to fame in the TK department was crushing a hut that was as hard as durasteel. Considering Anakin's very first action as Darth Vader, during the famous "NOOOO" scene, was to crush the whole scenery with TK (meaning that he would've been able to do so even as Anakin), I don't actually see any improvements here even 20 years later.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
It was your agreement to this,

which makes it seem that you agree that Vader would crush ITZ Anakin in a straight Force battle, that caught my attention.

Now that I think about it there really aren't superior showings of TK for Vader. His only shot to fame in the TK department was crushing a hut that was as hard as durasteel. Considering Anakin's very first action as Darth Vader, during the famous "NOOOO" scene, was to crush the whole scenery with TK (meaning that he would've been able to do so even as Anakin), I don't actually see any improvements here even 20 years later.

As for Vader's (imo) best TK feat, crushing a material akin to durasteel isn't what I had in mind. Using his TK to begin force choking Xizor from across space (while holding back) is...

"Xizor turned toward the hologram of the dark-caped figure-an intimidatingly life-sized image, transmitted from the Devastator, Lord Vader's personal flagship. Standing against Vader-even in this insubstantial form-was like facing radiation hard enough to strip flesh from bone. Not for the first time Xizor felt an invisible hand settle around his throat. His own willpower kept the breath sliding in and out of his lungs. But if Vader were to unleash his complete wrath, the force of will might not be enough. Xizor had seen others, the highest-ranking officers in the Empire's forces, clutching their throats and gasping for air, writhing like a Dantooinian garfish caught on a barbed trawling line. Perhaps wisely, Vader tended to avoid such displays in front of the Emperor; why tempt the old man into showing how much greater was his own mastery of the Force that penetrated and bound the galaxy together?" - TBHW

At the time I believe Vader was near Coruscant and Xizor was on Tatooine. To give you bearing on the gargantuan distances we are talking about, here is a map of the Star Wars galaxy:

(Coruscant and Tatooine are circled in red.)

Uber as hell.

Galan, when you are comparing the two combatants, are you using In teh zone Anakin as in ROTS Anakin?

What would be your view on

"In teh zone Anakin + 20 years of more experience with his full body" vs. OT Vader?

Surely In teh zone + 20 years on a full body could crush OT cripple Vader? This is speculation at this point because a fully body Anakin +20 years could never happen, but what's your view in this case?

That's speculation. But given another 20 years, yeah. He'd only 13 years of training at that point. Add 20...

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes, I agreed that Vader would win in a pure force battle, because Vader has demonstrated superior offensive force feats. Not sure how that is an illogical line of thought..?

As for Vader's (imo) best TK feat, crushing a material akin to durasteel isn't what I had in mind. Using his TK to begin force choking Xizor from across space (while holding back) is...

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
That's impressive, however I don't see how it will help him in a Force Battle against ITZ Anakin. He won't be able to choke or TK someone who's a lot more stronger in the Force than him and considering my earlier mentioned showing of Anakin (destroying the scenery with TK) and considering how Marek tossed Vader around like a rag doll in their fight, I simply don't see Vader winning here.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The point isn't that he's really good at Force Choke. The point is that, despite tens of thousands of light-years distance between them, Vader's command of the Force is such that he can reach through that distance. It wasn't some spur of the moment burst of frustration that allowed for a boost in power, it was a controlled act, and he had the power to do it. Tens of thousands of light-years. Multiplied by 5.8 trillion miles. For every light-year. Limit that distance to a dozen feet.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
And my point is that his superior control would mean nothing in view of ITZ Anakin's sheer power. Dooku for example has displayed an immense control of TK when he brought down Ventress to her knees with needle-like precision, however he wouldn't be able to do something like that to someone who's stronger than him in the Force like Yoda, Sidious or Marek.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And as neither Dooku nor Anakin threw so much as Force-induced flick at each other, you base this on what?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
On the second part of my quote.

Granted, in such a lucid state, his natural Force reserves are gonna give him an edge against anyone, but who's to say his mastery of telekinesis is as as controlled as when he's Vader? Sabers, yes. He's got Vader whooped.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kay, and just how are you comparing Zone Anakin and OT Vader? Lord Zed only appears for all of... 15 seconds when he brought down Dooku. But he didn't display a single Force attack. Clarity of mind =/= "unlimited POWAH".

Granted, in such a lucid state, his natural Force reserves are gonna give him an edge against anyone, but who's to say his mastery of telekinesis is as as controlled as when he's Vader? Sabers, yes. He's got Vader whooped.

The Nooooo was fueled by Darkness. Lord Zed was some kind of... hybrid? Paradox? Iunno.

In terms of Force-outage, Anakin's Zone self can't be measured--we're given nothing about his potential "increases" in skill/power. I'm reading through the passages now, and it reads like you would about Vaapad: a state of mind. One better suited to utilizing what's already available to him. But it mentions nothing about a greater display of Force-power or increased power behind a Force push or something--it's all saber play.

Zone Anakin isn't some kind of God, and his state of mind does not offer him invincibility. The novel makes repeated mentions of "unrestrained" and "let go"--as in let go of what he already had, not what he could have or will have, GL makes it clear he hasn't even achieved half his potential yet.

Which is why I say that he would own most people in a saber duel, but you match him up with someone with a greater command of the Force than his current incarnation, he's going to lose.

Now Zone Vader, THAT'D be something.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Nooooo was fueled by Darkness. Lord Zed was some kind of... hybrid? Paradox? Iunno.

In terms of Force-outage, Anakin's Zone self can't be measured--we're given nothing about his potential "increases" in skill/power. I'm reading through the passages now, and it reads like you would about Vaapad: a state of mind. One better suited to utilizing what's already available to him. But it mentions nothing about a greater display of Force-power or increased power behind a Force push or something--it's all saber play.

Zone Anakin isn't some kind of God, and his state of mind does not offer him invincibility. The novel makes repeated mentions of "unrestrained" and "let go"--as in let go of what he already had, not what he could have or will have, GL makes it clear he hasn't even achieved half his potential yet.

Which is why I say that he would own most people in a saber duel, but you match him up with someone with a greater command of the Force than his current incarnation, he's going to lose.

Now Zone Vader, THAT'D be something.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
[Lucas said that] he (Vader) lost a lot of force power (power, not potential) right there when he became half machine. This means that Vader's Force powers are FAR weaker than the ones Anakin had already displayed at some point before (in all likelihood during his ITZ state).

Then I guess you've won. Vader is weaker than Anakin.

Is this some kind of sarcasm I once again don't get? 😐

Nooooo, of course not.

😖

I'm confused.

dontgetit

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork

a.) Anakin didn't really show a fine technique either; it was a display of superior Force powers where Dooku (or in Luke case Vader) simply couldn't defend against the ferocious strikes anymore.

Ummm looked like pretty damn good sword work to me i dont know what movie u were watching....

And not exactly sure how he shows superior force abilities at all during his fight with dooku...at least external force powers. His raw force power and unlimited force reserves combined with his superior saber technique is what won him the fight. Oh and the whole using the darkside thing too

😛

And i dont know why you guys are goin back and forth about this, aren't you both agreeing that "in teh zone" Anakin would win? lol

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The point isn't that he's really good at Force Choke. The point is that, despite tens of thousands of light-years distance between them, Vader's command of the Force is such that he can reach through that distance. It wasn't some spur of the moment burst of frustration that allowed for a boost in power, it was a controlled act, and he had the power to do it. Tens of thousands of light-years. Multiplied by 5.8 trillion miles. For every light-year. Limit that distance to a dozen feet.

And keep in mind that Vader preformed the aforementioned feat while restraining himself... It's hard to even grasp.

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson014
And i dont know why you guys are goin back and forth about this, aren't you both agreeing that "in teh zone" Anakin would win? lol