Avatar: The Legend of Korra

Started by NemeBro127 pages
Originally posted by Nephthys

Me liking Toph has nothing to do with this. You're literally the only one who's had this issue that I've seen. Maybe you should just realise that you have shitty opinions and are stupid and confrontational for no reason.

Confrontational? Probably, my blood burns too hot for its own good.

I'm certainly not stupid or the only one who thinks this though.

Also, an appeal to majority means nothing. Not everyone had a problem with Brienne's characterization in Game of Thrones, but I was just as right there. 👆

Nephthys, I'm sorry I'm needlessly confrontational.

I'm eh on old Toph.

On the one hand ya can't say she lacks for personality. If she was just a kind old lady then it could be said that they took the spark from her. Toph needed to be tough and fun because that is at the core of her character. And this type of teaching did work with Aang and her ideas of letting Korra get the metal out herself are actually kinda nice, since it goes along with the idea that Korra is the one holding herself back with fear, sorta like how Aang could not be confrontational until he stopped being an evasive Airbender and stood his ground.

But the problem here is actually a really dirt simple one. The change is not of character but context. This Toph isn't 12 and the Avatar she is helping doesn't need to master a bending art form in under a year. We can forgive Toph being mean to Aang because he NEEDED Earthbending. Roku flat out told him to get it done. This Toph is an old lady and Korra...well she doesn't really need anything from her until the end when it was revealed the metal was in her but even then Toph isn't gonna help. Korra's goal is to overcome her mental blocks holding her back but why Toph is the person teaching her is perplexing because, aside from having a few issues making pals early on, she's never mentally limited herself. Not to mention how last episode made Korra seem so worn and sympathetic that you wanna root for her. So when you have Toph constantly belittling her and, way more importantly, talking herself up I can't say I don't see why one would think less of her.

Toph just comes across as a person who really hasn't grown up that much since she was 12 and that is what I kinda dislike. In real life someone acting like Toph could get pretty obnoxious, especially if that person was known to be a less than ideal parent(probably not gonna be mentioned again). I have ideas of how I'd have personally liked Toph to be portrayed but no one really cares about that.

All the fun is sucked from this thread...

Yeah, thanks Nemebro.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ignoring that this is offensive on multiple levels to actual rape victims, it still demonstrates that Satsuki is essentially unflappable, with the only vulnerability she's really shown being her uncertainty with what to do with her life in the bonus episode, now that her goal is finally realized. This makes Satsuki almost inhuman, and not relatable.

Oh snap, you mean the character who is explicitly superhuman both physically and mentally is superhuman physically and mentally? You don't say. In fiction characters "get over" physical and mental trauma that would cripple any normal person all the time because they're not bound by the limitations of the real world. She's obviously not intended to be an accurate depiction of an abuse victim any more than Uzu is an accurate depiction of a blind person. Her willpower and mental fortitude are literally portrayed as superhumanly strong. Remember when she was like 5 years old and talking about building fortresses in her mind? Her managing to control her emotions is simply in character for her. And even so you're exaggerating, since she clearly was effected by her mothers treatment of her and it was only her iron will that stopped her from flipping out when Ragyo was degrading her in the cell.

And you're ignoring that Satsuki was never intended to be relateable, since she was introduced as the villain and characterised as ridiculously intense and strong in her convictions and goals. She isn't someone we relate to, more someone we aspire to be as strong as.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Furthermore, this unfortunately puts Satsuki in close proximity to one of the worst aspects of Kill la Kill. The molestation. You don't put rape or molestation into your show unless you're willing to actually ****ing go the distance and portray the issue in a respectful manner. Satsuki is as stated wholly indifferent to the rape (She hates her mother, but for different reasons, the rape itself is never indicated to have had any lasting effects on her in the series proper, and to pretend otherwise is fanwank). It also doesn't play any part in any aspect of her character arc, or her character in general. Why was it in the show then? The most unflattering interpretation is it was there to titillate. A more flattering but still equally hackneyed and inappropriate is to give Ragyo, the rapist in question, some cheap, mindless heat, which is ignorantly done at the expense of Satsuki's character (And Ragyo's, for that matter). "Look, she's a rapist, she's obviously the villain!", this lazy characterization of Ragyo is also a serious problem with Kill la Kill but I won't get into that here. I've already gone wildly off-topic.

I could make the exact same arguments for Mikisugi constantly sexually harassing Ryuko and it being played for laughs. Or Senketsu molesting her in the first episode. Both characters portrayed as good guys who Ryuko is on good terms with.

But this is a subjective topic where there's not really a good argument either way. I had no issues with how the rape was handled. Ragyo was portrayed as a predator who used sex to dis-empower and control her victims (its implied she did so with Nui as well and I wouldn't be surprised if she did it to Rei too) and gratify herself and it was portrayed in a highly negative light in my opinion. Also it's not as if Kill la Kill is above using cheap story elements in the show.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The fact that Ryuko can, in fact, lose her way is what makes her an objectively better character than Satsuki. 👆

No, it just makes her a different character. Satsuki is a fun character precisely because of her incredible will and strong personality.

Originally posted by NemeBro
There's no tension on whether or not Satsuki can lose her way. It just can't happen, because she's apparently superhumanly immune to trauma of any sort. Whereas Ryuko, the younger sister, is still relatively immature, and we fear seeing her lose her way because we know it can happen. "Don't lose your way" fits Ryuko's character so well because she is well-rounded and human enough that it's a possibility. Satsuki doesn't need to be told not to lose her way; losing her way is seemingly impossible. Satsuki, as an actual character, is at her best when interacting with and juxtaposed against Ryuko. I won't say any more than that because I know Aura is reading this thread and I don't want to spoil Kill la Kill for him because I still need to force him to watch it.

There shouldn't have been any tension over whether or not Satsuki can lose her way because she was introduced having already lost her way as the tyrannical ruler of the school who instilled fear in everyone's hearts. She was the villain who's actions were completely shitty. So until her heel-face turn the audience isn't supposed to feel tension over her potentially losing herself and afterwards she's on track for a redemptive arc until she admits that her previous actions were flawed and starts to emotionally open up in the finale.

Although there was that point where Ragyo's plan was to get her insanely pissed off and force her into Shinra Kotetsu or whatever. Which given her extreme actions and quest for revenge was a possibility and something a lot of people thought could happen.

Not talking about KlK anymore. /discussion. You want to keep this up take it to PMs.

Originally posted by NemeBro
"We are supposed to find it funny but still realize it wasn't right, now here's some reasons why it was right."

You've proven my point well enough.

I didn't say it was right, just not as bad as you're whining about. And why she's still portrayed as a positive character despite her obnoxiousness.

Originally posted by NemeBro
First of all, smugly disregarding Sokka because he's a non-bender isn't nearly the same as constantly putting down and belittling someone who is both physically and mentally ill.

Beating up Korra for training is one thing, but the fact that Toph is being such a **** and treating Korra like shit, only for Korra to not "actually mind" is what makes Toph come off as a Jerk Sue. Toph is being a shithead and calling out Korra on everything, while also easily deflecting the merest accusation that maybe, just maybe, Toph isn't so perfect herself, and thus far the show seems to agree with her.

Toph didn't know she had PTSD, just that she was having issues. It is a similar situation because Sokka is self-conscious about it, but Toph isn't very sensitive so she takes shots at everything.

Well probably because Toph was actually helping her, Korra didn't mind. Though when Korra called her out on being a shithead, Toph didn't deflect it she just agreed and laughed about being a douche. And I don't see how Toph stating that helping people was pointless was supposed to be something we were supposed to agree with or was actually supported. Korra isn't going to call her an awful person because again, she is still a good guy who we're supposed to like, but the episode certainly wasn't portraying her as right for being a bitter, cynical jerk.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's also different from Bitter Work because, well first of all Aang wasn't mentally or physically sick. Second of all, Aang needed Earthbending. Her harsh methods were more necessary then. Here, Korra is chilling with Toph on a quest for personal improvement. Finally, Aang did indeed man up and take his shit back from Toph, at her expense. She wasn't portrayed as infallible, but it was also shown that at least she isn't petty enough to let that get her down and she still felt pride for Aang progressing as a student.

Here she's just a ***** who is bullying a mentally ill person, and apparently the audience is supposed to find this funny and cool.

Nah, she's a Jerk Sue thus far. Hopefully this changes soon. 👆

I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Yeah and here Toph was still genuinely trying to help. She just wasn't sugar-coating anything, Korra does suck and she knows it. Toph is simply a bitter, crotchety old woman who likes lording how great she is over people. Which is still in character from the original series.

Maybe because it was funny and cool. 👆

Nah, you're just a whiny contrarian who loves to complain. Toph is a Jerk. She is also cool. Too bad nerd, cry moar.

Didn't you two just make up? 😬

No, we made out its a totally different thing.

Daphuq is all of that shit about. Coundn't this all be wrapped up in the form "Toph has, is, and always will be a "Jerk with a heart of gold"(at least when she cares about what's happening).

There is no heart of gold to be found in today's episode.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not talking about KlK anymore. /discussion. You want to keep this up take it to PMs.
Why did you bring it up then? Don't be such a foolish girl.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, we made out its a totally different thing.

I just don't want you and Mom to get a divorce. 🙁

I don't why everyone is so pissed about Toph, she was funny, a bit wise, strong. tough and more importantly, she was being her usual Toph self. Was she a bit of a douche to Korra? No, its her method of teaching and it's worked before and it'll probably work again. I think we'll get see a different side once the writers delve more into her character and story.

Neme is right, Toph was absolutely awful in this episode.

Edit: Aura really hit it on the head, Toph isn't a kid any more.

I didn't mind Toph's personality. Sure it would've made more sense for her to be different after all these years but she's clearly in her crazy-Yoda-in-a-swamp faze and she's always had that special condescending way of talking to Aang (judging by the flashback) and probably just wanted to recapture that feeling. Plus it was done for the fans who would've hated it if she was just some old wise lady with no trace of her personality from the original show that we all know and love.

Another thing I liked about this episode was how Kuvira was signing autographs in the background at one point. It was a neat, humanising moment. She was even smiling afterwards.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why did you bring it up then? Don't be such a foolish girl.

As a small snipe. I didn't intend for this ridiculous debate. I said we could continue in PM's if you want.

I don't like Kuvira. I don't think she's a poorly written character, nor do i actually think she's actually a villain... i just don't like her. Imo, she's a good person who is willing to be perceived as a villain/dictator/etc. for the better good. Her bedside manner is terrible and not in a makes me laugh and is also kinda charming way like a Greg House.

oh, and Bolin is truly my least favorite character in this show now. He's a goddamn fool.

What did you think of Toph marwash?

Also, I found Bolin's sticking with Kuvira and getting angry with Bolin far more organic and believable than his sudden transformation into a rapist in book 2.

When did Bolin become a rapist. Also I thought that scene was used to demonstrate how Kuvira is a smooth talker or something.

TBH, if I had to choose between Kuvira or the prince I'd choose Kuvira. Especially if I worked beside her for a year or two and saw all the good she did for the Earth Kingdom.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What did you think of Toph marwash?
i loved young Toph.

Current Toph kinda bugged me, because while i liked that she was recognizable in terms of the way she talks, the way she's still acting shows that she hasn't grown as a person.

The way she treated Korra was upsetting because she displayed a lack of wisdom I expect to come with age. Toph treated Korra like she was Aang, she was way to familiar with her, as if she has the same connection with Korra as she did with him... she doesn't. Even though Korra is the avatar, she is in no way the same person as Aang. Toph doesn't know Korra's struggles, she doesn't know Korra's pain and she doesn't know Korra's personality and what works for her in terms of motivation.

Toph was a jerk as a kid and i was fine with it, i even loved when she went off on Katara, but she's not a kid anymore. I expect someone well into adulthood to know that people are different in the way they can be treated and how they'd possibly respond.

Hopefully we'll get that softer side of Toph in later episodes, because i don't think Katara is the type of person who has positive reactions to "tough love".