Don't ask, don't tell (DADT).

What are your opinions on the "Don't ask, don't tell." policies the that US military has had in place for many years?

Recently, there has been some upheaval and a call to remove this policy.

Some legislation went through congress, this past May, but I don't think it's permanent.

Discuss DADT: support your reasons for against this policy.

Also, I would like to see some legal suggestions to DADT, if this policy can be improved.

My personal opinion on it: repeal it, permanantly. Military personnel that persecute homo or bisexuals should be punished to the full extent. As for whether it should be military court of civilian court, I don't know. If someone with more knowledge of why it wouldn't be a corrupt situation to put them through military court, I'm all ears.

Abolish it. It serves no purpose whatsoever.

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Of course gays should be able to serve. The question I have is what do we do about berthings? Males and females have seperate berthings, both in port and on ship. If we have openly gay males, do we now allow gays to be bunked with straights? If there are two men sharing a barracks room, should a straight male be forced to dress and undress in front of someone he knows is gay? On ships where 80 men dress and shower in front of each other, is it fair to force a straight male or female to do so in front of a gay male or female? In boot camp where showering sometimes requires twenty people nude showering together, is it fair to force a straight male to lather up in front of a gay male?

Should gays be allowed to serve? Absolutely. The real question is how we bunk. For some services, like the Navy and Marine Corps, the idea is more problematic and it becomes a logistical nightmare, not necessarily an ethical one. Currently, most services have private rooms and showers allocated to junior service members serving ashore. Deployments are very different, especially on ship.

I absolutely believe in fair and equal rights for gays and straights, but we have to fix certain issues before, I believe, it's feasible to repeal the policy.

Yes they should bunk together. Even men and women should be able to bunk together. I find it a weakness of our culture that we can't handle being around people nude. Australian Aboriginals for instance used to always go around naked and they never had any problems because they didn't have such a stupidly modest attitude.

What does it matter if someone who's gay is bunked with someone who isn't? Just because they prefer their own gender doesn't mean they're going to automatically be attracted to everyone of their own gender. How ridiculous. The only issue there is extreme arrogance and insecurities on the part of those who worry about such things.

Originally posted by Peach
What does it matter if someone who's gay is bunked with someone who isn't? Just because they prefer their own gender doesn't mean they're going to automatically be attracted to everyone of their own gender. How ridiculous. The only issue there is extreme arrogance and insecurities on the part of those who worry about such things.

Originally posted by Kinneary
Of course gays should be able to serve. The question I have is what do we do about berthings? Males and females have seperate berthings, both in port and on ship. If we have openly gay males, do we now allow gays to be bunked with straights? If there are two men sharing a barracks room, should a straight male be forced to dress and undress in front of someone he knows is gay? On ships where 80 men dress and shower in front of each other, is it fair to force a straight male or female to do so in front of a gay male or female? In boot camp where showering sometimes requires twenty people nude showering together, is it fair to force a straight male to lather up in front of a gay male?

Should gays be allowed to serve? Absolutely. The real question is how we bunk. For some services, like the Navy and Marine Corps, the idea is more problematic and it becomes a logistical nightmare, not necessarily an ethical one. Currently, most services have private rooms and showers allocated to junior service members serving ashore. Deployments are very different, especially on ship.

I absolutely believe in fair and equal rights for gays and straights, but we have to fix certain issues before, I believe, it's feasible to repeal the policy.

Excellent post and I agree with just about everything.

As far as bunking, yeah, that can be problematic. BUT, that can easily be avoided if there are stiff penalties for harassment for either side, just like a real job. 🙂

Originally posted by Kinneary
By that logic, women should be forced to shower in front of men also. Obviously, men aren't attracted to everyone woman they see. Do you advocate that?

Wow, I did not think about it that way. I was agreeing, fully, with Peach, until I read your reply.

I have no logical reply to your above rebuttal. I can't think of anything that soundly defeats your point.

Maybe if the sexes were physically equal? I'd agree that they should bunk. As of right now, there exists a very significant sexual sexual asymmetry. Until that is resolved, one sex will be more subject to sexual assault than the other.

Gene therapy for the win? 😆

There's only sexual assault because of our culture... there is absolutely no reason, biologically, why sexes should have any problem being nude together.

Originally posted by King Kandy
There's only sexual assault because of our culture...

I seriously doubt that.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I seriously doubt that.

Changing our culture and changing the logistics of berthing aren't really comparable. Changing our culture isn't a particularly feasible military option in this respect. An easier, cheaper, quicker, and more realistic solution would be to change the living conditions in which service members are housed.

In a perfect world, men and women and gays and straights could all be bunked together in the military. But, in a perfect world, there would also be no need for a military to begin with. So let's stop talking about 'perfect world' scenarios and start concentrating on real world ones, eh?

OK. I don't think serious problems would result in them bunking together. Personally I thought it was a more interesting topic discussing why we would even expect it to be a problem.

Because, realistically, it is. Would you force your mother, sister or daughter to shower or get undressed in front of strange men? I'd assume not.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, that wasn't quite correct. I guess I should have said, showering together would only provoke sexual assault because of our culture.

Our culture which is so pro sexual assault?

Originally posted by Kinneary
Of course gays should be able to serve. The question I have is what do we do about berthings? Males and females have seperate berthings, both in port and on ship. If we have openly gay males, do we now allow gays to be bunked with straights? If there are two men sharing a barracks room, should a straight male be forced to dress and undress in front of someone he knows is gay? On ships where 80 men dress and shower in front of each other, is it fair to force a straight male or female to do so in front of a gay male or female? In boot camp where showering sometimes requires twenty people nude showering together, is it fair to force a straight male to lather up in front of a gay male?

Should gays be allowed to serve? Absolutely. The real question is how we bunk. For some services, like the Navy and Marine Corps, the idea is more problematic and it becomes a logistical nightmare, not necessarily an ethical one. Currently, most services have private rooms and showers allocated to junior service members serving ashore. Deployments are very different, especially on ship.

I absolutely believe in fair and equal rights for gays and straights, but we have to fix certain issues before, I believe, it's feasible to repeal the policy.

good post, but I disagree.

i appreciate the way you are going about this however, i think you may be overstating the awkwardness of bunking/showering together. My roommate freshman year of college was gay but i'm not and it never was an issue. he knew i was straight so there was no sexual tension because there never was a chance anything could happen. And hey, even if he didn't know i was straight, he probably wasn't attracted me anyways ( as much as it hurts my ego cuz like all straight men, i find myself damn attractive)

People seem to assume that gay people are attracted to everyone of their own sex, but this obviously isn't the case. So long as heterosexuals understand this, than they should have nothing to worry about. If straight people are uncomfortable about showering with gays then that discomfort is most likely created by their own perceptions of homosexuality rather than the thoughts or actions of any homosexuals.

So long as you trust our men and women in uniform to conduct themselves professionally, and so long as they trust each other to do so, there should be no problem and gay men and women should be able to serve openly.

Originally posted by Rapscallion
good post, but I disagree.

i appreciate the way you are going about this however, i think you may be overstating the awkwardness of bunking/showering together. My roommate freshman year of college was gay but i'm not and it never was an issue. he knew i was straight so there was no sexual tension because there never was a chance anything could happen. And hey, even if he didn't know i was straight, he probably wasn't attracted me anyways ( as much as it hurts my ego cuz like all straight men, i find myself damn attractive)

People seem to assume that gay people are attracted to everyone of their own sex, but this obviously isn't the case. So long as heterosexuals understand this, than they should have nothing to worry about. If straight people are uncomfortable about showering with gays then that discomfort is most likely created by their own perceptions of homosexuality rather than the thoughts or actions of any homosexuals.

So long as you trust our men and women in uniform to conduct themselves professionally, and so long as they trust each other to do so, there should be no problem and gay men and women should be able to serve openly.

Your situation with your gay roommate, while moving, isn't the same thing. Did you ever shower naked in front of him, for example?

Once again, by the logic you're using, males and females should be forced to shower together, since not every male is attracted to every female he sees.

Again, there should not be a problem with men and women showering together. Where I live people go to a country fair where it is exceedingly common for women to go topless or some even completely nude. Some men do so as well. Nobody complains about it because everyone is comfortable about their sexuality.

Originally posted by Rapscallion
good post, but I disagree.

i appreciate the way you are going about this however, i think you may be overstating the awkwardness of bunking/showering together. My roommate freshman year of college was gay but i'm not and it never was an issue. he knew i was straight so there was no sexual tension because there never was a chance anything could happen. And hey, even if he didn't know i was straight, he probably wasn't attracted me anyways ( as much as it hurts my ego cuz like all straight men, i find myself damn attractive)

People seem to assume that gay people are attracted to everyone of their own sex, but this obviously isn't the case. So long as heterosexuals understand this, than they should have nothing to worry about. If straight people are uncomfortable about showering with gays then that discomfort is most likely created by their own perceptions of homosexuality rather than the thoughts or actions of any homosexuals.

So long as you trust our men and women in uniform to conduct themselves professionally, and so long as they trust each other to do so, there should be no problem and gay men and women should be able to serve openly.

Indeed. I find it hard to believe that a group of gay men would rape a straight guy...like a group of straight men would rape a girl. Men are bastards.

And, King Kandy, I think that sexual assault from men to women is not a cultural thing at all. To me, it's more bestial than it is culture, by far. There's lots of examples of rape in the animal kingdom, outside of humans. And some of the rape is for the very same "reasons" as humans'.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Again, there should not be a problem with men and women showering together. Where I live people go to a country fair where it is exceedingly common for women to go topless or some even completely nude. Some men do so as well. Nobody complains about it because everyone is comfortable about their sexuality.

Okay, we'll only recruit soldiers from your town.