Don't ask, don't tell (DADT).

Originally posted by King Kandy
Again, there should not be a problem with men and women showering together. Where I live people go to a country fair where it is exceedingly common for women to go topless or some even completely nude. Some men do so as well. Nobody complains about it because everyone is comfortable about their sexuality.

Granted that's an extreme comparison, but a fair one, I think. There are situations that shouldn't happen, but do, and we have safeguards in place to prevent them. Repealing those safe guards doesn't make sense if the issue is present.

Okay, we'll only recruit soldiers from your town.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. I find it hard to believe that a group of gay men would rape a straight guy...like a group of straight men would rape a girl. Men are bastards.

And, King Kandy, I think that sexual assault from men to women is not a cultural thing at all. To me, it's more bestial than it is culture, by far. There's lots of examples of rape in the animal kingdom, outside of humans. And some of the rape is for the very same "reasons" as humans'.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Okay, we'll only recruit soldiers from your town.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I was thinking more like, "the rest of america should be more like that".

How dare people differ!
What will happen to individuality if we don't force people to act the way you want them to?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Of course sexual assault is not because of culture. What i'm saying is, it's our culture that would cause showering together to create a problem. I already gave the example of aboriginees, but many cultures have existed where nobody wore any clothes at all. They did not have any problems being nude together. Being uncomfortable showering with the other sex is a completely artificial construct.

And here I thought you would use the bonobos vs. common chimpanzees temperaments to counter my point. 🙁

Even in the case of those two chimps...I think they rape still occurs among the bonobos, at times...it's just really really really rare.

Would you like to know that rape and molestation is highly common among Australian Aborigine and it goes back "ages" before modern man "poisoned" them with their "civility"? Yes, lots of things are in quotes by I do not intend direct meanings from their use.

In other words, I think you example is shit and it flies directly in the face of your point. However, we could be talking about two different aboriginal peoples. (As I am not aware of any aboriginal peoples that did not have rape or molestation...as that seems universal.)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How dare people differ!
What will happen to individuality if we don't force people to act the way you want them to?

Hey, don't knock it until you've tried it!

More directly, I REALLY believe the world would be a better place if everyone was more like me. awesome

Originally posted by dadudemon
Would you like to know that rape and molestation is highly common among Australian Aborigine and it goes back "ages" before modern man "poisoned" them with their "civility"? Yes, lots of things are in quotes by I do not intend direct meanings from their use.

In other words, I think you example is shit and it flies directly in the face of your point. However, we could be talking about two different aboriginal peoples. (As I am not aware of any aboriginal peoples that did not have rape or molestation...as that seems universal.)

What I DID say was that I did not feel there was a natural tendency for NUDITY to provoke sexual assault. I did not know that rape was any more common in aboriginees, some native americans, some south american natives, etc. then there was in a culture where people are clothed. I would definitely appreciate a source if that is your claim here. If you are saying that it is a non-cultural phenomenon for people to not be able to shower with the other gender without there being sexual tension, then we would have to believe that cultures that don't use clothes, rape would be a completely pervasive thing that is constantly going on every day to the extent that it far exceeds anything that is thinkable in western culture.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How dare people differ!
What will happen to individuality if we don't force people to act the way you want them to?

As this theoretical culture where nudity is no issue isn't pertinent to a realistic discussion of current military policy, perhaps we should save it for another thread?

It's very pertinent. It relates to how people would deal with bunking. And they aren't theoretical these are actual, existing cultures i'm talking about.

And you propose this culture could take hold across America in the next year? Or five years?

Originally posted by King Kandy
At this point I think you would have to almost be trying to misunderstand me. I already said (multiple times) that there is a natural tendency for rape to occur. I already said that and you have been ignoring it every time.

What I DID say was that I did not feel there was a natural tendency for NUDITY to provoke sexual assault. I did not know that rape was any more common in aboriginees, some native americans, some south american natives, etc. then there was in a culture where people are clothed. I would definitely appreciate a source if that is your claim here. If you are saying that it is a non-cultural phenomenon for people to not be able to shower with the other gender without there being sexual tension, then we would have to believe that cultures that don't use clothes, rape would be a completely pervasive thing that is constantly going on every day to the extent that it far exceeds anything that is thinkable in western culture.

No, I saw your point and you're making non sequitor points.

How can I prove that rape is higher due, specifically, to their nudity? How can you prove that it is lower? Those are non sequitor constructs.

And, it's common knowledge, to me, that rape is much higher among Australian Aboriginals.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

http://www.australian-news.com.au/aborepresent.htm

You would need to delve into the psychology of sexual assault, when "male dominance and entitlement" are not even a factor. That'd have to be a very massive, "closed environment" observation and test on humans. How could you even accomplish that? So, put humans, naked, in a shower, and tell me if any of them get raped.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, I saw your point and you're making non sequitor points.

How can I prove that rape is higher due, specifically, to their nudity? How can you prove that it is lower? Those are non sequitor constructs.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And, it's common knowledge, to me, that rape is much higher among Australian Aboriginals.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

http://www.australian-news.com.au/aborepresent.htm

Originally posted by dadudemon
You would need to delve into the psychology of sexual assault, when "male dominance and entitlement" are not even a factor. That'd have to be a very massive, "closed environment" observation and test on humans. How could you even accomplish that? So, put humans, naked, in a shower, and tell me if any of them get raped.

Jesus christ, this doesn't matter! The culture that Kandy is talking about ISN'T our culture. It's not a culture that can even be implemented in the next twenty to fifty years. It's not relevant! It's an entirely different discussion, with no bearing on the topic.

Originally posted by King Kandy
These 'non sequitor points' were my entire argument. You act like i'm going on some kind of tangent here when i'm just saying the same thing as I ever was.

I'm not acting like anything. I didn't address a non-sequitor point as it doesn't get us anywhere.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The first source doesn't really prove much because it isn't about aboriginals. The second source is garbage. Reading that site you should have been able to tell, easily, that it is highly biased, evident in the way it demeans all of the contrary arguments, which actual valid journalists just don't do.

The first source is to show you how high Australia's rape is on the list...which has an absurd and disproportionate contribution from the aboriginal peoples. (In other words, per capita, the Aboriginals rape a lot more.)

And, it took me all of 30 seconds to find those two links.

And, the second link is not garbage. I know it doesn't fit your points, very well, and that can be frustrating. But, if you're looking for something other than a site trying to bring awareness to crimes, just google search for something...or just talk to a judge, police officer, case-worker, etc. that has jurisdiction over the aboriginal peoples. Or, you could just watch Australian news.

For me, it's common knowledge. I don't know of one person that isn't aware of the horrendous sexual abuses that occur among the Australian Aboriginals. You'd be the first educated, adult I've run into that wasn't aware of that problem.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think it would depend on where you got them from.

Well, that's entirely up to you and the psychological community to determine. I will not pretend to be aware of the dynamics of sexual assault. I'll only state that it does exist.

Well, I think we've gotten off of topic, slightly. Just take this away from my posts about this: the Australian Aboriginals are the very worst example you could think of (I can't think of another example that fits what you were trying to convey, in such a bad way. I've been trying and I can't think of another group that makes your point any wronger). Please, select another example to make your point.

Originally posted by Kinneary
Jesus christ, this doesn't matter! The culture that Kandy is talking about ISN'T our culture. It's not a culture that can even be implemented in the next twenty to fifty years. It's not relevant! It's an entirely different discussion, with no bearing on the topic.

You're right. But it does have bearing on this topic.

How can we justify living (which includes showering) facilities of the opposite sex? That came from: gays are attracted to the same sex and not all of the same sex is gay, so how can we justify having the same living facilities for both when we can't justify it for the opposite sex?

See, we must get over this bump of "opposite sex can't, so homosexuals can't for the same reasons."

Well, I think it would have to depend on statistics. I think the US is actually doing a study to determine this shit.

I mentioned tons of groups that are nude. It is also VERY pertinent that there is a direct corralation between level of poverty and level of crime... where most indigenous people definitely come up on the short end of the stick. I see no data at all that suggests a similar correlation depending on whether the culture wears clothes.

Also, aboriginals do wear clothes in modern times... so what their current status is regarding sexual abuse is actually aside from the point itself.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Also, aboriginals do wear clothes in modern times... so what their current status is regarding sexual abuse is actually aside from the point itself.

Nah, it was "tradition" that carried over after modern man tainted them. Some things persist, even after civility is introduced. I already talked about that, too.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah, it was "tradition" that carried over after modern man tainted them. Some things persist, even after civility is introduced. I already talked about that, too.

You talked in other threads about how police are biased in regards to arrest and conviction of African Americans but you show absolutely no sign that you have given any thought to the fact that similar effects exist in Australia... instead you have a source that accuses anyone supporting the aboriginal side of the argument of being "do-gooders", "posturing", committing "emotional blackmail", should "hang their heads in shame", etc... yeah, let's see the "New York Times" use phrases like that, should show you right away that that is not a news source in any way dedicated to professionalism or accuracy.

I am not sure about the bathroom issue at all, I understand that many women want separate accommodations, however I don't absolutely see the justification for why the government should mandate it. I suppose if statistics show that rapes and assaults increase in places with unisex bathrooms, you might have a justification, but then there'd also need to be research as to what happens with straight/gay bathrooms if it is out in the open. Ideally I'd say that unisex should be the standard though and that is is up to the establishment whether to make separate bathrooms.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am not sure about the bathroom issue at all, I understand that many women want separate accommodations, however I don't absolutely see the justification for why the government should mandate it. I suppose if statistics show that rapes and assaults increase in places with unisex bathrooms, you might have a justification, but then there'd also need to be research as to what happens with straight/gay bathrooms if it is out in the open. Ideally I'd say that unisex should be the standard though and that is is up to the establishment whether to make separate bathrooms.

We're only really talking about bathrooms used by the military, in which case the government would have to make a judgment call.

Except KK, he's advocating a total cultural shift.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's not even close to being something you can prove.

Sure I can.

Lemme find an expert or some writing on Australian Aboriginals and I'll be right back.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You talked in other threads about how police are biased in regards to arrest and conviction of African Americans but you show absolutely no sign that you have given any thought to the fact that similar effects exist in Australia...

Hahahaha.

No I didn't.

What I DID talk about was some unfair examples and I DID show that African Americans are much more prone to violent crimes (two separate threads.)

Originally posted by King Kandy
instead you have a source that accuses anyone supporting the aboriginal side of the argument of being "do-gooders", "posturing", committing "emotional blackmail", should "hang their heads in shame", etc... yeah, let's see the "New York Times" use phrases like that, should show you right away that that is not a news source in any way dedicated to professionalism or accuracy.

It's pretty tough to deal with the facts when there are nay-sayers in the face of massive amounts of rape and molestation. It's despicable behavior for people to try and ignore it. Of course there will be strong language.

And it's quite laughable that you think it loses credibility just because of strong language. That's just ONE article. Just one. I dare you to stop posturing and google search the topic.