Originally posted by Tha C-Master
[B]Then again it's been stated by characters Tony was the smartest alive, and he beat Reed in chess.
Which characters? Tony himself would be the first to say that Reed is a better scientist than he is.
Tony as a better strategist, yeah, I can buy and agree with. But in terms of pure scientific intellect, Reed is the guy building pocket universes and traversing the multiverse, where Iron Man is going gaga over a flying car.
Originally posted by DesaadI was just using an example since you used statements. I know Pepper has said it, and I know the chess example. I wasn't arguing so much it being true in all around science. Just making a point around statements.
Which characters? Tony himself would be the first to say that Reed is a better scientist than he is.Tony as a better strategist, yeah, I can buy and agree with. But in terms of pure scientific intellect, Reed is the guy building pocket universes and traversing the multiverse, where Iron Man is going gaga over a flying car.
Tony is good with Robotics and engineering. Reed does chemistry, biology, and physics moreso.
And strategy like you said, and business. Business and strategy and tactics go well together of course.
Originally posted by MindsetComplete and utter control over his body and bodily movements that they can't hope to possess.
How?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I was just using an example since you used statements. I know Pepper has said it, and I know the chess example. I wasn't arguing so much it being true in all around science. Just making a point around statements.Tony is good with Robotics and engineering. Reed does chemistry, biology, and physics moreso.
Feel you, and you're right in a sense -- but Tony looking 'good' with robotics and engineer is more down to the fact that he is, in fact, an Engineer. In terms of pure ability, Hank Pym has already outstripped anything Tony has done with robotics with the creation of Ultron (as an example).
The thing is this -- engineering is an applied science. You need to understand math and physics and chem and biology and all of that to be an engineer (depending on your field of specialty, naturally) but generally not to the degree of theoretical detail that a pure mathematician would. It's the same with doctors and biologists -- and I say that as someone studying medicine.
What I'm getting at, is, guys like Steel and Tony Stark operate on a similar level in their respective universes. They're more concerned with results than with science -- more concerned with the effect an object has on society than with the actual object itself. Lex Luthor, TOny Stark and Steel represent a sort of spectrum of that, with one end being purely selfish, the other purely selfless and Tony in the middle being...well, somewhere in between.
They both tend to underperform, in comparison to their 'mad scientist' counter parts -- the Pyms, the Caulders, the Dooms, the Morrows, the Palmers.
And strategy like you said, and business. Business and strategy and tactics go well together of course. Complete and utter control over his body and bodily movements that they can't hope to possess.
While in general I agree with you, in this case I think Reed is probably so far beyond the realm of reasonable characterization that it's just a matter of him not being INTERESTED in those things. The guy predicted the way events would lead us in Civil War with math, then just to be sure built a device that would allow him to sift through alternate realities like computer files to find out if there were other options -- only to find that when he led the world, everything turned out pretty awesome.
That's just the place they have built Reed into. Which is why I'll bet hard money that he is going to die in "Three".
Originally posted by Desaad
Feel you, and you're right in a sense -- but Tony looking 'good' with robotics and engineer is more down to the fact that he is, in fact, an Engineer. In terms of pure ability, Hank Pym has already outstripped anything Tony has done with robotics with the creation of Ultron (as an example).The thing is this -- engineering is an applied science. You need to understand math and physics and chem and biology and all of that to be an engineer (depending on your field of specialty, naturally) but generally not to the degree of theoretical detail that a pure mathematician would. It's the same with doctors and biologists -- and I say that as someone studying medicine.
What I'm getting at, is, guys like Steel and Tony Stark operate on a similar level in their respective universes. They're more concerned with results than with science -- more concerned with the effect an object has on society than with the actual object itself. Lex Luthor, TOny Stark and Steel represent a sort of spectrum of that, with one end being purely selfish, the other purely selfless and Tony in the middle being...well, somewhere in between.
They both tend to underperform, in comparison to their 'mad scientist' counter parts -- the Pyms, the Caulders, the Dooms, the Morrows, the Palmers.
While in general I agree with you, in this case I think Reed is probably so far beyond the realm of reasonable characterization that it's just a matter of him not being INTERESTED in those things. The guy predicted the way events would lead us in Civil War with math, then just to be sure built a device that would allow him to sift through alternate realities like computer files to find out if there were other options -- only to find that when he led the world, everything turned out pretty awesome.
That's just the place they have built Reed into. Which is why I'll bet hard money that he is going to die in "Three".
It is possible. But intelligence is mainly an aptitude (in simplest terms). I suppose arguments could be made Tony isn't interested in many things because he'd rather... be Tony. Business intelligence isn't simply number crunching, it takes confidence, leadership skills, strategy, tactics, and a brutal mindset, the kind it takes to lead a war. Hence why Tony is more natural at it. Reed, being more "natural" in other areas still looks up to Tony because of this.
Which leads me to Interpersonal and Intrapersonal intelligence. Tony has Reed beat there too.
But as far as *the* "science guy" in the terms that we think, it'd be Reed or Doom likely. Tony becomes a larger competitor in a broader sense.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
[B]It is possible. But intelligence is mainly an aptitude (in simplest terms). I suppose arguments could be made Tony isn't interested in many things because he'd rather... be Tony. Business intelligence isn't simply number crunching, it takes confidence, leadership skills, strategy, tactics, and a brutal mindset, the kind it takes to lead a war. Hence why Tony is more natural at it. Reed, being more "natural" in other areas still looks up to Tony because of this.
I question the idea that we'd ever get a scene for TOny like the one with got with Reed regarding how long it would take to get up to Pym's level, and Reed has already beaten Tony at his own game by predicting the future with verifiable math or looking at all the other possible solutions via reality search. He's also proved that across the multiverse he can and has consistently done what Tony failed at, and that he was the only one who could have done it.
Which leads me to Interpersonal and Intrapersonal intelligence. Tony has Reed beat there too.
Does he? Stark is one of the most hated men on the planet. Reed is one of the most trusted. Stark has terrible issues with relationships, Reed has a loving wife and family.
I know it may seem that I'm a big Reed Richards fan or something, but I'm not. I don't think what has been done to him is necessarily to the benefit of the character -- turning him into a plot device like this, the Deus Ex Machina. I think Hickman recognizes that as well.
But his relative level of intelligence has just been hammered home consistently, especially lately. In Secret Invasion, how long did it take him to find away to overcome the Skrull's technology, when had considerably more time to do so?
It's absurd at times, definitely, but that is the direction Marvel has taken him.
Man you're good. We're having a good discussion. You haven't done anything to really bother me at all.
Reed Richards is a genius but because of his "plot powers" it makes him the biggest fool in some ways.
Originally posted by DesaadYea, Reed is a better "scientist" in many fields. Didn't Pym want to be like Tony. I swear it's like a circle jerk.
I question the idea that we'd ever get a scene for TOny like the one with got with Reed regarding how long it would take to get up to Pym's level, and Reed has already beaten Tony at his own game by predicting the future with verifiable math or looking at all the other possible solutions via reality search. He's also proved that across the multiverse he can and has consistently done what Tony failed at, and that he was the only one who could have done it.Does he? Stark is one of the most hated men on the planet. Reed is one of the most trusted. Stark has terrible issues with relationships, Reed has a loving wife and family.
Reed neglects his family though. Tony can be a jerk but he knows how to deal with people and understands emotions. He uses them to his advantage a lot of times. But I'd definitely say he knows people, emotions, and business a lot more.
Being hated in a sense shows he can extract strong feelings out of people and has more charisma. Hitler was hated, but he definitely had a powerful effect on people.