Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=472567&pagenumber=1 😐
Nothing there on the level of a Cosmic Cube or Celestial. Additionally, we've seen then hurt by Lunat!k and Rulk, messed with by Quasar, being blinded by a mere aftershock of a battle between Mlc and the Beyonder (parts of a cube!), etc.
And we've seen Overmind say that he could take three at once.
It's more than arguable what the various artifacts did.
He explains what they did, and they are all necessary for him to gain the knowledge and have the power to do what he did. Any one of them would make the feat immediately less impressive, all of them together is at best a feat in planning and not at all a scientific feat. Any character could do the same, Red Skull could do the same.
And didn't that feat in Fantastic Four #522 involve Galactus' own tech and Johnny's Cosmic Awareness?
No, Quasar made the device from Reed's brain schematics and they used Johnny's Power Cosmic to partially fuel it. But Quasar just acted as a construction method, so the only thing 'special' that Reed used was a sample of Galactus' own power --- considerably LESS than Helix of Randac + Cosmic Control Rod + Knowledge Device + Cosmic Cube.
I already had this argument on page 22. Enough with that pile of horse poo.
You didn't have it with me. What exactly is your beef?
I wasn't referring to the Infinite Avengers Mansion, I was referring to his Pym Pocket.
Nope, that's just him shrinking stuff, not an actual alternate dimension, and he certainly didn't create one.
Noh-Varr had a tool that created a pocket dimension also.
Yeah, and he also built a time machine out of nothing in a day, so he's obviously operating out of the bounds of any normal, earthly being. That was the whole point of his appearance in Avengers, that his technology was lightyears ahead of anything Stark had or had seen.
And Reed never, ever has invented a Time Platform.
Are you arguing with yourself here? I already made mention of that.
So what? Guess since Noh-Varr can time-travel as shown in Avengers vol.4, he's better than both Reed and Doom.
It's clear he's got technology on their level, absolutely.
Go figure. Same question as above. And it's not the first time Doom's stolen Galactus' power if that matters to you.
Unless he built the technology that stole it on his own, I'm not at all interested, no. (Stealing Surfer's power is not the same as stealing Galactus' power).
Look, Paste Pot Pete could steal Galactus' power with a Cosmic Cube. That is not indicative of some great level of genius, and is not even close to the same as creating a device that does it, even one fueled by the Power Cosmic itself.
And he didn't destroy the TVA. The TVA is perpetually in turmoil and disarray. That's the tongue-in-cheek joke concerning the TVA.
The TVA was a typical, reductio absurdem bureaucracy , which is what that was about in the first place. Reed LEFT it in disarray by creating a computer virus ON THE FLY that wiped out the computers of an organization that quite literally monitored every timeline in the MU. Trying to underplay that is...absurd.
Yes. Reed was the "assistant."
How did Doom accomplish it? Via straight tech?
I'm talking about a grenade invented by Doom that throws people two seconds into the past. I'm talking about a machine invented by Doom which completely freezes time within a localized radius that encompasses an entire town. I'm talking about his own armor's circuitry simultaneously preventing him from being frozen in time. I'm talking about his armor's Time Cube which can reverse time in a localized area aligning it with the present.
Fair enough. All impressive. Still none of them match up with creating pocket universes/dimensions, or creating celestial destroying weapons, or the gate he created in Dark Reign FF.
Fine. Doom has never studied the creation of pocket dimensions.
It's an application of physics and one, by the way, that would be most appropriate and most ATTRACTIVE to a narcissist like Doom, if 'Planet Doom' and Latveria are any indications.
Terrible, truly awful argument, and one that I don't think even you felt held merit.
And Reed doesn't know squat about the entirety of magic, not just a subset of a subset of magic.
Uh, right. Exactly.
I'm referring to scientific intelligence here. If you want to argue that Doom is a better linguist, please go right ahead.
And Reed didn't use magic "to his advantage" as much as he managed to accidentally figure out the firing system of Dr. Strange's magical talisman, i.e., self-deprecation.
Accidently figure out? He figured it out, through educated trial and error, which is what all science is about.
With no study, no background, he was able to do this and beat Doom at his lifelong game.
Yeah. Except Strange and Hector Hall and Dr. Fate know jack-sh1t about science and tech as much as Reed knows jack-sh1t about magic. Doom's an expert at both. And that's the point.
Right, so we can agree that Hector Hall is on an intellectual level with Reed Richards then, yes?
By that same token, Batman has mastered how many areas of science, math, magic, martial arts, meditation, criminology, sociology, psychology, etc. If we're going by the number of areas, certainly Batman (or, arguably, Mr. Terrific) has this.
And while we're at it, James Joyce was probably one of the most technically skilled writers in history, playing with the english language in ways that would confound literature professors and enthusiasts for decades. Certainly as smart as Reed Richards?
Originally posted by DesaadRight. When's the last time a Celestial waged a fight "across the infinite rivers of reality"? Or accessorized themselves with universes? Don't be ignorant. It may suit you, but you could use a change. Start by reading:
Nothing there on the level of a Cosmic Cube or Celestial. Additionally, we've seen then hurt by Lunat!k and Rulk, messed with by Quasar, being blinded by a mere aftershock of a battle between Mlc and the Beyonder (parts of a cube!), etc.And we've seen Overmind say that he could take three at once.
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3554/0331602008rembrandtdcpnw7.jpg
Originally posted by DesaadThe Helix of Randac transmuted Doom's body to handle the Ultimate Machine's knowledge. Annihilus' Cosmic Control Rod attuned the Cosmic Cube so that it would let transport Doom directly to Galactus (among allowing him to retrieve the other artifacts). Doom's own invention, the Power Cosmic Siphon Harness, still did the job.
He explains what they did, and they are all necessary for him to gain the knowledge and have the power to do what he did. Any one of them would make the feat immediately less impressive, all of them together is at best a feat in planning and not at all a scientific feat. Any character could do the same, Red Skull could do the same.No, Quasar made the device from Reed's brain schematics and they used Johnny's Power Cosmic to partially fuel it. But Quasar just acted as a construction method, so the only thing 'special' that Reed used was a sample of Galactus' own power --- considerably LESS than Helix of Randac + Cosmic Control Rod + Knowledge Device + Cosmic Cube.
With Reed's feat, he had Quasar and Johnny Storm actually build and power the machine extrapolated from his own design. And Johnny Storm's Cosmic Awareness was the one who gave Reed the knowledge and instructed Reed how to make a bigger, better version of a simple transference device. So good job forgetting, and then admitting that Reed had the benefit of both power and knowledge which, by your standards, mitigates the magnitude of Reed's feat. Otherwise, nice double-standard.
Originally posted by DesaadThat argument has already played itself out. Don't bring up "Reed maps the Omniverse" garbage with me.
You didn't have it with me. What exactly is your beef?Nope, that's just him shrinking stuff, not an actual alternate dimension, and he certainly didn't create one.
Yeah, and he also built a time machine out of nothing in a day, so he's obviously operating out of the bounds of any normal, earthly being. That was the whole point of his appearance in Avengers, that his technology was lightyears ahead of anything Stark had or had seen.
Are you arguing with yourself here? I already made mention of that.
It's clear he's got technology on their level, absolutely.
Pym. Pocket.
The rest is pure deflection. Sorry to burst your bubble about the Reed made a zomgmadeapocketdimension feat. And pretending to recognize that Doom invented the Time Platform which Reed has not done, isn't exactly consistent when you take an invention by Reed which Doom hasn't made and act like Reed one-upped Doom. Enough with the deflections from the double-standards.
Originally posted by DesaadYeah. Doom built the machine that stole Galactus' power the first time in Secret Wars. You know? One of the most important story-arcs in all of Marvel history that you thought was retconned?
Unless he built the technology that stole it on his own, I'm not at all interested, no. (Stealing Surfer's power is not the same as stealing Galactus' power).Look, Paste Pot Pete could steal Galactus' power with a Cosmic Cube. That is not indicative of some great level of genius, and is not even close to the same as creating a device that does it, even one fueled by the Power Cosmic itself.
And Doom did it with the Power Cosmic Siphon Harness. If Doom's invention, which he wore and he activated was that superfluous, why bother bringing it? The obvious is staring you in the face. And even giving your argument full faith and credit, how does Reed get credit for Johnny Storm's idea which took Reed's basic design and injected it with steroids both design-wise and power-wise? Stop acting like you're not simultaneously undermining your own list o' feats.
Originally posted by DesaadTrying to act like he destroyed the TVA is absurd. Next time, don't post a misleading line like "Reed destroyed the TVA."
The TVA was a typical, reductio absurdem bureaucracy , which is what that was about in the first place. Reed LEFT it in disarray by creating a computer virus ON THE FLY that wiped out the computers of an organization that quite literally monitored every timeline in the MU. Trying to underplay that is...absurd.How did Doom accomplish it? Via straight tech?
Fair enough. All impressive. Still none of them match up with creating pocket universes/dimensions, or creating celestial destroying weapons, or the gate he created in Dark Reign FF.
What do you think? Read comics.
Pym Pocket. Noh-Varr. Doom pwned Watchers and Galactus with his weapons. Only way to act like Reed is one-upping Doom in both instances here is by applying one-sided logic that would render Reed's own accomplishments suspect by the very same token. Reed built something Doom hasn't? Amazing. Doom built something Reed hasn't either. Reed built something that pwns non-616 Abstracts? Great. Doom built something that pwns 616 Abstracts.
Originally posted by DesaadIt is a terrible, truly awful argument. That's why I'm pointing out how terrible and truly awful your argument is. Reed built something Doom hasn't. Doom built something Reed hasn't. Where do you get off throwing sh1t logic at me and not realizing you're covered in it? By justifying it by projecting that Doom must obviously have tried to invent a pocket dimension because he's a narcissist and must have failed int he endeavor? What? Doom's narcism = Doom must have studied pocket dimensions = Doom must have failed to invent one? What the sh1t?
It's an application of physics and one, by the way, that would be most appropriate and most ATTRACTIVE to a narcissist like Doom, if 'Planet Doom' and Latveria are any indications.Terrible, truly awful argument, and one that I don't think even you felt held merit.
Originally posted by DesaadMagic = linguistics. You heard it right here, folks. Fascinating argument.
Uh, right. Exactly.I'm referring to scientific intelligence here. If you want to argue that Doom is a better linguist, please go right ahead.
Originally posted by DesaadRead the scene again, clown. This isn't rocket science. Dr. Strange gave him a talisman. Dr. Strange gets pwned before he can instruct Reed how to use it. Reed tries. He fails. He manages to realize how to use it by accident:
Accidently figure out? He figured it out, through educated trial and error, which is what all science is about.With no study, no background, he was able to do this and beat Doom at his lifelong game.
Originally posted by DesaadNice straw-man. I'm not arbitrarily placing a quotient value on magic, making it on par with science. I'm telling you that magic requires both intelligence and wisdom.
Right, so we can agree that Hector Hall is on an intellectual level with Reed Richards then, yes?By that same token, Batman has mastered how many areas of science, math, magic, martial arts, meditation, criminology, sociology, psychology, etc. If we're going by the number of areas, certainly Batman (or, arguably, Mr. Terrific) has this.
And while we're at it, James Joyce was probably one of the most technically skilled writers in history, playing with the english language in ways that would confound literature professors and enthusiasts for decades. Certainly as smart as Reed Richards?
Reed's at highest echelon of science. So is Doom. Hector Hall is not. Hector Hall is at the highest levels of sorcery. So is Doom. Reed is not, neither is Batman, neither is Mr. Terrific. Trying to ignore that Reed doesn't know crap about it and stands at a vast disadvantage of a compendium of knowledge that has proven to be as vast and plot-devicey as comic book science is, is ignorance. And acting like Batman's mastery of many disciplines isn't an indication of his intelligence is speaking in tongues of retard.
Or... it's you being a sore loser. Cheer up. Or don't. Who cares. Just cease with your equivocations over your own rhetoric, e.g., "Doom's narcism = Doom must have studied pocket dimensions = Doom must have failed to invent one" or "the entirety of magic = linguistics and isn't wisdom or knowledge at all." I don't speak retard.
It's Reed and it's not even really a contest.
Even as Hank Pym got elevated to scientist supreme (yeah, slotts a retard) he made it clear that both Reed and Tony were smarter than he.
And Reed flatly stated it would take him a couple of weeks worth of studying to bring himself up to Pym's level in a subject to which Pym had dedicated the majority of his life's work.
Originally posted by DesaadThen again it's been stated by characters Tony was the smartest alive, and he beat Reed in chess.
It's Reed and it's not even really a contest.Even as Hank Pym got elevated to scientist supreme (yeah, slotts a retard) he made it clear that both Reed and Tony were smarter than he.
And Reed flatly stated it would take him a couple of weeks worth of studying to bring himself up to Pym's level in a subject to which Pym had dedicated the majority of his life's work.
Intelligence is broad. Tony is probably the most business savvy and can become rich from scratch. His story revolves around his business and people trying to take it. He is also good with people, that is an intelligence too.
