I don't usually go in to it like this, but, cuz I like you:
Originally posted by AdventThose powers of hers that you mentioned? Force Slam, Force Grip, Sever Force, Battlemind, Battle Influence, Dominate Mind, Force Stun, Force Whirlwind, Slow, Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force Lightning, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, Force Stasis Field...
Right, because you know I haven't provided any shred of evidence and you know that my opponents gave universes of it. Or wasn't it the opposite? And weren't you agreeing with me? Oh, yeah, that's right - I'm the only one that ever has to prove anything around here; everyone else seems free to make all the "say-so" assertions while making demands for evidence, nevertheless supplying none of their own.Bastila is not an unknown; an unknown would be someone like Ajunta Pall.
Does Kenobi possess the ability to counter these things, and if so, why?
And Mind tricking Motta vs. Jinn failing at Watto? A event that's not covered by anything vs. a genetically immune creature? "That's where it's obvious"?
Originally posted by AdventMalak=/>Dooku? How?
With the dark side spells learned under Malak, there's no way Obi "Force Pwned by a flick of the wrist" Kenobi can contend with Bastila.
Originally posted by AdventYes, that's true. Obi killed double-blade expert "deadliest Sith apprentice (note: Bastila was one those Sith apprentices) in history". He also matched 20-blade per second unorthodox Grievous.
By the age of 19, Bastila had mastered at least one lightsaber form (a single blade stance), and possessed a proficiency in her personally-constructed double-bladed lightsaber, which is far more difficult to be adept at and takes much more skill to wield than a single blade.
Originally posted by AdventBattle Meditation, a useful skill in one-on-one combat where one has to kneel and concentrate. I believe Worror did something similar. And Sith spells... Obi's f*cked now.
From the fact that she is the youngest Jedi to have ever mastered Battle Meditation to the point where she could turn the tide of a galactic war, and the rate at which she gained adroitness in Sith spells under Darth Malak, the inference is that her learning aptitude is among the highest of her times. This would extend to her lightsaber training, explaining why she was able to became so skilled in multiple saber styles.
Originally posted by AdventYes, good for her. Her Jedi Sentinel abilities allowed her to beat____ and will prove useful when faced against Obi's____ especially when her____ counters his____.
According to the Wizards of the Coast article, Jedi Counseling 81, as a Jedi Sentinel, Bastila "strikes a balance between the Jedi consular (focusing on diplomacy and a mastery of the Force) and the Jedi guardian (focusing on physical abilities and mastery of the lightsaber)". So, her training regime has effectively been to work on both areas of combat.
Originally posted by AdventPresumably, of course.
The first time we're shown Bastila's Strike Team in a canon cutscene, she is at the forefront, making mincemeat out of an upper tier Sith, presumably a master-level, as he was seen as a personal bodyguard of Revan:
Originally posted by AdventYes, this is critical to Bastila's known personal combat feats. In an Order of diminishing members (100 by war's end), a powerful and capable Jedi was chosen to face the Dark Lord. Almost as amazing as "three of the Order's most celebrated swordsmen" facing the Dark Lord. Because she and these three both did the same similar-sounding thing, we can contrast them.
From both KOTOR and the official Databank, the Jedi Council - despite "[k]nowing how valuable [Bastila] was to the order" and wanting to keep her safe - still tasked her with being the leader of the Jedi Strike Team to take down the war experienced commander, immensly powerful, full-fledged Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Revan. This speaks volumes for her abilities insofar that it suggests her viewpoint, contrary to what you may believe, was true: that she was more powerful than all, but a handful of master-level Force users in her time. The Council would not send an "unexceptional" duelist with no powers other than Battle Meditation. Neither would Malak choose her to be his second-in-command out of thousands of bloodthirsty Sith purely based on BM, which he deemed ultimately unnecessary.
Originally posted by AdventWith such a detailed and well explored duel as the one on top of the temple, with so much narrative and background and in-depth analysis of individual strengths and emotions and feelings, this sets all four players up for any hypothetical match.
Although her brashness and overconfidence could (and most likely would) end up being Bastila's undoing, her heroic spirit has never backed down from a physical fight - even if she is outmatched. She charged head-on and managed to stall against Darth Malak for a short amount of time, who at that point had surpassed Darth Revan in darkness [Knights of the Old Republic]. At the Temple of the Ancients on Rattaka, three-on-one: Revan, Jolee, and Juhani versus the corrupted Bastila, she was able to fend off and avoid capture, unharmed; only after doing an unalterable (and therefore canonical) move of a telekinetic wave that penetrated the defenses of and knocked down the trio of attackers.
Originally posted by AdventDifficult and challenging roles. That's telling us everything we need to know. And that's not all like the Clone Wars. No exact details on every situation (but some)? Again, not at all like the Clone Wars. "Certain" that she's faced a "range" of Dark Jedi. Stats and quantifiable feats galore! Aided in the destruction of some droids... amazing. Did she slice 'em up or deflect their lasers? Aided in the Leviathan? Did she slice 'em up or deflect lasers?
The campaigns waged against the Republic saw her as a Jedi Battle Commander, and "the quest for the Star Forge, which spanned worlds, kept Revan and Bastila working side-by-side, and thrust Bastila into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi" [Star Wars Databank, Bastila Shan]. So, although we don't have the exact details of every encounter (we do definitively have some), it is certain that Shan has gained much experience, facing a range of Dark Jedi, troopers, mammalians, and all kinds of scum and villainy throughout the course of her Jedi career. We know she aided in the battle on the Leviathan that would kill Saul Karath. For the first Star Map, we know she helped to destroy the droids capable of killing an experienced Jedi Knight, trusted by the Jedi Council for the task.
Originally posted by AdventYes, this is good. We've seen the effects this BattleMind and Battle Influence ability has on herself and others. We can measure it and contrast it.
As a dark sider, she can "[focus her] anger and hatred [making her able to fly into a berserker rage, increasing her battle prowess]. Using the Force in this way can push the body's physical abilities beyond what it can normally handle." [Jedi Academy Training Manuel, Page 47]. Combined with her Battlemind ability, or Battle Influence, she can further "[augment] one's morale and fighting spirit", such as Mace Windu did with his Vaapad usage or "envision a specific reality and make it real with the Force".
Originally posted by AdventChampions of the Force... the trading card set or the miniatures? On par with Kenobi=on par with Dooku? "Force Pwned by a flick of the wrist" by Dooku, Kenobi? Yeah, the holy of gospel of power levels all right.
Finally, according to Champions of the Force Preview 6, "Bastila [is] clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus." Obviously, their skill sets differ and they are far from on an equal playing field (Dooku would crush her and did so to Kenobi), but she is stated to be in the league of the latter two, meaning - at the very least - she would be able to hold her own in some respect; against Obi-Wan in particular, as the case has been outlined here.
Originally posted by AdventKenobi has no defence against this. Proven. Canonical. Quantifiable. Fact. Especially Bastila's, whose usage of it is so well documented.
Force Plague is an advanced version of Force Slow, "[causing] a target to suffer as though deathly ill from poison" and (from Slow) "clouds the mind, making a target's actions unusually sluggish". Clearly, neither TK.
Originally posted by AdventThis she has. She froze Jolee and Juhani with it. And if those two are, then Kenobi is helpless against it. Proven. Canonical. Quantifiable. Fact.
Stasis Field is an advanced version of Stun with a tangible energy field, which "allows the Jedi to assault the mind of an opponent...[who] is held in stasis, unable to move or take any action". Clearly, neither TK.
Originally posted by AdventKenobi casts Force Speed (rolls 11)! Bastila counters by casting Force Breach (rolls 17)! Kenobi cannot EVER use his Force powers on her. NO ONE can. Proven. Canonical. Quantifiable. Fact.
Force Breach involves a suppression of another's Force power: "[t]his ability will cancel...Force powers active on the target". E.g., if Obi-Wan used Force Speed, Bastila could cast Breach to immediately shut down the effects of the speed. Clearly, not TK.
Originally posted by AdventBastila's use of which is indefensible. Proven. Canonical. Quantifiable. Fact.
Insanity is an advanced version of Force Fear (essentially a dark Jedi mind trick), which has been in C-canon sources beyond sourcebooks - Naga Sadow, Aleema Keto, Darth Zannah, Darth Wyyrlok, all have performed the talent.
*sigh* I'm tired. This:
Originally posted by Advent
that it matters not whether or not she actually accomplished the feat, because she could have
and this:
Originally posted by Advent
that power was always there in game coding, so, in theory, Bastila could mind-trick Motta the Hutt if she had or wanted to.
Don't fly here. Sorry. Characters being pre-programmed in the coding to "be able" to do something don't make them canon in the mythos.
Could we place a ban on the use of the words "known" and "unknown" by any chance (please)? I think it would be more sensible to simply state what we can say about the characters (of both relative and absolute value) and evaluate their merits as they are rather than relying on prior and potentially faulty characterisations of these characters with such labels. Thank you in advance for any cooperation on this matter.
Also, taking into account that we can't technically prove who would emerge victorious in this outcome in the first place, but only argue a probability of such an outcome (which is not a subjective process to whomever was implying as much earlier), would it be possible for people to abandon the idea that we have to establish an absolute relationship* between Bastilla and Obi-Wan and accept that a relative relationship** is entirely capable of suggesting a probability regarding an outcome of a battle between the two of them?
* A relationship of absolute values.
** A relationship of relative values.
Originally posted by Aede Madavan
Could we place a ban on the use of the words "known" and "unknown" by any chance (please)? I think it would be more sensible to simply state what we can say about the characters (of both relative and absolute value) and evaluate their merits as they are rather than relying on prior and potentially faulty characterisations of these characters with such labels. Thank you in advance for any cooperation on this matter.Also, taking into account that we can't technically prove who would emerge victorious in this outcome in the first place, but only argue a probability of such an outcome (which is not a subjective process to whomever was implying as much earlier), would it be possible for people to abandon the idea that we have to establish an absolute relationship* between Bastilla and Obi-Wan and accept that a relative relationship** is entirely capable of suggesting a probability regarding an outcome of a battle between the two of them?
* A relationship of absolute values.
** A relationship of relative values.
Nebaris, I actually dislike the idea. Without the absolute relationship (given through canon material) our own opinions will color our arguments to the point of flaming each other.
For instance, in this argument, Advent believes she has given sufficient evidence to suggest that Bastilla would dominate Kenobi with the force.
I don't think her evidence is nearly as good as she thinks, so we are at an impasse. (which is leading to flaming, as you can see)
This would happen in every single thread where we don't have an absolute relationship somewhere along the way.
Originally posted by truejedi
Nebaris, I actually dislike the idea. Without the absolute relationship (given through canon material) our own opinions will color our arguments to the point of flaming each other.For instance, in this argument, Advent believes she has given sufficient evidence to suggest that Bastilla would dominate Kenobi with the force.
I don't think her evidence is nearly as good as she thinks, so we are at an impasse. She hast given a LOT of evidence, but since I see holes in it, I don't think it is very high quality.
This would happen in every single thread where we don't have an absolute relationship somewhere along the way.
Originally posted by truejedi
Nebaris, I actually dislike the idea. Without the absolute relationship (given through canon material) our own opinions will color our arguments to the point of flaming each other.For instance, in this argument, Advent believes she has given sufficient evidence to suggest that Bastilla would dominate Kenobi with the force.
I don't think her evidence is nearly as good as she thinks, so we are at an impasse. (which is leading to flaming, as you can see)
This would happen in every single thread where we don't have an absolute relationship somewhere along the way.
Well firstly, let's say hypothetically we ignore all evidence of relative value, how do you propose that we form an absolute relationship between Obi-Wan and Bastilla in the first place? The only way would be if known upper/lower limitations of absolute values between the two overlapped, i.e. if Bastilla were to display a lower limit of absolute value that surpasses Obi-Wan's upper limit of absolute value in a form that can be comparable, or vice versa. However we don't have any such evidence to form an absolute relationship between the two, so we have to rely on other, less absolute means to compare the two.
Now I won't get into a huge argument on the matter, but a vague representation of my thoughts, based off of what Advent has been saying, would be thus: Obi-Wan to my knowledge was never renowned for his ability with the Force, is not demonstrated to have been especially dominant in his era and has been show numerous times at the mercy of other force users, some of which have themselves not been demonstrated to be especially impressive, e.g. Asajj Ventress. Bastilla on the other hand displays a general level of dominance in her era and was of generally far greater renown that to me suggests that it's more likely that she was far more able with the Force then Obi-Wan. Can we technically quantify exactly how able every Force User that Bastilla displayed dominance over was with respect to Obi-Wan? No but we don't have to.
Secondly where does the idea that opinion would necessarily enter the equation when using inabsolute comparisons come from? We can't say for certain what's more impressive between the way Bastilla dominates the minds of Jolee and Juhani and the way Kenobi resists Anakin's Force Push but it doesn't mean that we can't apply a very objective process of statistics and probability to determine what is likely the more impressive.
Originally posted by Aede Madavan
and has been show numerous times at the mercy of other force users, some of which have themselves not been demonstrated to be especially impressive, e.g. Asajj Ventress.
Obi-Wan was at the mercy of Asajj Ventress? When did that happen? Was it here in the Star Wars movie:
Who are the other force users by the way?
Battle Meditation, a useful skill in one-on-one combat where one has to kneel and concentrate. I believe Worror did something similar. And Sith spells... Obi's f*cked now.
Just to put it out there, I don't recall anything saying that you have to kneel and concentrate to use battle meditation. Nomi Sunrider used it in battle and against opponents without having to do that (though she had the most powerful and effective version of the ability known) and while in gameplay, you don't have to do that when you use it in Kotor 2.
And she stuns any allies you bring, so her being able to simultaneously stun Jolee and Juhani is canon in that regard.