Darkseid & his Elite Vs Annihilation Wave

Originally posted by Desaad
That seems naive. Technological superiority tends to be the deciding factor in most military conflict.

This statement is quite ignorant. When technological difference NEGATES the numbers then I will most likely agree. My EXACT point was it does not in this case.

Originally posted by Desaad
When they're facing a foe who can generate solar-system destroying affects at a whim, numbers aren't going to do the job. It was Galactus destroying, what, 3 star systems that ultimately crippled the wave beyond hope?

Well, yes, because DS (after all) is abstract level like Galactus and would most certainly be at the heart of the Awave and catch the entire Awave unprepared when he delivers his coup de grace. I mean it's not like the Awave is gonna be attacking him while this happens.

And btw, it takes a LOT more power to destroy 3 adjacent Solar Systems than it takes to just kill 3 Solar Systems individually. :-/

Sheesh.

Originally posted by Desaad
Those were far from herald + level characters, with the exception of Ravenous, given that it took GROUPS of them to take on a single Herald level character. And we dont' know how they are manufactured, or what limitations of production Annihilus had.

They didn't NEED groups. They just used groups to take down heralds easily. Big difference.

Originally posted by Desaad
Meanwhile, Darkseid could create as many Brimestones as their are stars in the universe (and more, really) without any real loss of resource (all he and Apokolips need to do is manufacture the Techno-Seed, the actual power is drawn from outside sources of heat such as stars, or nuclear reactors, or geothermically), or could activate his Trumpets of Doom and summon and control his pet Promethean Giant.

Oh yes, because DS have a ready army of Brimestones waiting at his beck and call.

Oh wait, HE DOESN'T.

Whether it be CIS or perhaps an unstated reason (like maybe the techno seed isn't as easy to manufacture as you make it sound), DS DOESN'T have an army Brimestones at his beck and call does he?

Annihilus has an army of superhuman herald-levelers at his beck and call. This was stated on-panel and can thus be used for the purposes of this debate.

This is a prep war, so of course Darky can get whatever he wants.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This statement is quite ignorant. When technological difference NEGATES the numbers then I will most likely agree. My EXACT point was it does not in this case.

Well, yes, because DS (after all) is abstract level like Galactus and would most certainly be at the heart of the Awave and catch the entire Awave unprepared when he delivers his coup de grace. I mean it's not like the Awave is gonna be attacking him while this happens.

And btw, it takes a LOT more power to destroy 3 adjacent Solar Systems than it takes to just kill 3 Solar Systems individually. :-/

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Given his higher showings of prep and tech and power anything less than conquering the DCU seems like monumental CIS for Darkseid. Must be New Genesis's opposition that keeps him from just steamrolling the DCU with an army of Brimstones and a Legion of Staynes.

Well that's the beauty of Apokolips -- they've got a natural counterpoint set up, so not having them own the universe is not only logical, it's the only logical thing.

And at least with Stayne that was a Galactus/Herald type relationship, so there is no reason to think he could just empower an army of them, or even more than one at a time. With Brimestone, specifically, it SHOULD be a no brainer because all he's doing is manufacturing the techno seeds, and then using OTHER power sources to basically create his weapons. And the number of available power sources is huge (anything that generates great amounts of heat). AND Darkseid has already used multiple Brimestones, and upgraded various versions of them.

Originally posted by Desaad
Can I get some evidence of that? Ravenous is the only one who performed anything approaching decently 1v1 against a Herald, and even he recently got his stuff pushed in against a Supergirl rip off character (Xenith or, as she is called now, Strontian).

Read Awave. It's there.

Why do you ppl keep ignoring context?? Ravenous no longer had the opposing force when he fought Xenith because Annihilus was dead. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
That's literally something that Darkseid sends out at a whim. No 'secret weapon' to it, he's got plenty of planet destroyers at his disposal, and one of them sucks the bio energy from the planet to be used on Apokolips.

You see the difference in scale we're talking about? To one group, it's the end all be all, their ultimate trump. To the other, it's business as usual, normal operating procedure.

The fear it caused was because it was destroying whole planets. Which, again, is no big deal for the forces of Apokolips. The war between Apokolips and New Genesis (which, going by Seven Soldiers, had to be WELL over 50,000 years ago and likely MILLIONS or BILLIONS) nearly destroyed their universe.

Again, you don't seem to understand my point. :-/ the Marvel Space Empires have planet buster bombs themselves (Nega Bombs). Heck the Kree (with a little help from the Inhumans) was able to manufacture a bomb that wrecked entire systems as well as rip a HUGE tear in the fabric of space-time.

Planet-busting isn't such a big deal in Marvel. :-/ Surfer does it nonchalantly.

The Harvester of Sorrows was more of a fear tool than a pinnacle of destructive technological achievement for the Awave. It was an unstoppable/indestructible tool to sow fear in the hearts of the enemy.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
This is a prep war, so of course Darky can get whatever he wants.

You never said "prep" in your OP.

You simply said DS had his resources.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes but you don't need to be Abstract to do it.

W/c has little to no bearing in this debate. :-/

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You never said "prep" in your OP.

You simply said DS had his resources.

I said he can use ALL his resorces. Which means prep.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I said he can use ALL his resorces. Which means prep.

In w/c case the Annihilation Wave would get:

Thanos and his prep
Thanos' alliance with T&A
the Galactus Gun.

Making this an absolute STOMP in favor of the AWave.

Or did you just design this thread to ALLOW DS the prep while not giving the AWave any? :-/

Both sides get prep. I don't do one-sided prep.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Both sides get prep. I don't do one-sided prep.

Awave still wins then.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This statement is quite ignorant.

Not at all. What was ignorant was likening taking technological level into account to 'going to a science fair', and belittling the massive role technological innovations like, say, the utilization of iron have historically played in military conflict.

When technological difference NEGATES the numbers then I will most likely agree. My EXACT point was it does not in this case.

No, your point was that technology didn't matter. But you gave nothing to back that up. You also gave nothing to back up that the Annihilation Wave has a greater number of combatants at their disposal, especially when I was very specific to mention that Darkseid's parademons quite literally cannot die without his permission, that his resurrection technology and omega's can resurrect any member of his elite (and have) and that he can manufacture/grow large numbers of fodder with ease.

Well, yes, because DS (after all) is abstract level like Galactus and would most certainly be at the heart of the Awave and catch the entire Awave unprepared when he delivers his coup de grace.

I don't know who you're talking to, but you can't be addressing me.

Where did I say that Darkseid, as normally portrayed (ie, not Final Crisis Darkseid) is Galactus level? Where did I say that it was going to be Darkseid who was going to be using his personal power to do such a thing?

I said that his technology can replicate, or even trump, such effects. And that's the gods honest truth, hard as it may be for you to accept.

I mean it's not like the Awave is gonna be attacking him while this happens.

Yeah, it's not like Darkseid hasn't demonstrated the ability to teleport his planet to another solar system, or teleport others away, or surround his planet in a shield that can take solar-level blasts.

The fact that the Annihilation Wave had a tendency to mass like a, well, wave is a strike AGAINST them, not for them.

Sheesh.

Whats with your astoundingly bad attitude? I'm giving you the facts, and haven't said a thing that was factually incorrect.

They didn't NEED groups. They just used groups to take down heralds easily. Big difference.

Then PROVE it, yeah? If they didn't need half a dozen to take down Terrax, if they were each herald level, than a better allocation of resources would have been to assign two to take him down and leave the rest for other super powered foes.

Until you can actually demonstrate that the seekers were herald level, they aren't.

Oh yes, because DS have a ready army of Brimestones waiting at his beck and call.

Oh wait, HE DOESN'T.

Hold up.

Why is it okay for YOU to make hypothetical extrapolations ("Annihilus could just manufacture a massive army of seekers to take out Darkseid's elite..."😉 but it's suddenly not okay for me to do the same?

You did see what my hypothetical was in reply to, didn't you? I'm NOT saying that Darkseid is going to do this. I'm saying he COULD, specifically in response to you putting forward that same type of argument.

The only real difference is I have actual showings to back up Darkseid's ability to manufacture them with ease and the power level they represent.

Annihilus has an army of superhuman herald-levelers at his beck and call. This was stated on-panel and can thus be used for the purposes of this debate.

No, it wasn't. Show me proof that any of the seekers were herald level. Show me the NUMBERS of seekers that he had 'at his beck and call'.

When you can do both of these things, you'll have a point. Until then, you don't.

Or Darky summons Stayne and Soulfire. Plus his Promethean Giant.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
W/c has little to no bearing in this debate. :-/

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Read Awave. It's there.

I've read the entire Annihilation Wave crossover. I participated in discussions with Andy Schmidt, the editor, as it was coming out.

What evidence are you using? I want actual showings that back up that Seekers were herald level, individually. Because all we saw of them was that they attacked heralds in large groups and took them down. And they succeeded in taking, what, two?

Why do you ppl keep ignoring context?? Ravenous no longer had the opposing force when he fought Xenith because Annihilus was dead. :-/

Why do you keep ignoring the burden of proof that rests on you?

Again, you don't seem to understand my point. :-/

Don't flatter yourself. Your point is simple, it's just not based on anything but speculation.

the Marvel Space Empires have planet buster bombs themselves (Nega Bombs).

Right, itself an 'ultimate weapon' style bomb.

Heck the Kree (with a little help from the Inhumans) was able to manufacture a bomb that wrecked entire systems as well as rip a HUGE tear in the fabric of space-time.

LOL, ' a little help'? There was so much going on there, what a ridiculous over simplification. Not only had the fabric of space time been messed up, but that was drawing energy from black bolt, it was using terrigen crystals, etc.

And did it wreck entire systems? It's been a while since I read the actual issue, but I don't recall any talk as to how much physical damage it did. As I recall it, the device was to turn beings into Inhumans, not create physical damage. Hardly a terrifying fate, really, and one part of the crossover that never made any sense.

Planet-busting isn't such a big deal in Marvel. :-/ Surfer does it nonchalantly.

He doesn't, actually. He's done things of greater effect nonchalantly (creating a black hole), but his actual planetary destruction feats are limited (once in a fight with Morg, which was hardly nonchalant, and once when he tried to evolve the planet, thought he planet itself wasn't destroyed, just the surface, and the effort nearly killed him).

The Harvester of Sorrows was more of a fear tool than a pinnacle of destructive technological achievement for the Awave.

This is what I'm talking about, you're not getting it.

Why was the Harvester of Sorrows feared? For the same reason that the Atom Bomb was feared -- for the destruction it caused.

It was an unstoppable/indestructible tool to sow fear in the hearts of the enemy.

Yeah, the power of it, the effect it had, was what made it such a ferocious weapon.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
In w/c case the Annihilation Wave would get:

Thanos and his prep
Thanos' alliance with T&A
the Galactus Gun.

Making this an absolute STOMP in favor of the AWave.

Or did you just design this thread to ALLOW DS the prep while not giving the AWave any? :-/

His alliance with T&A only went so far as them subduing Galactus -- they never engaged in the actual battle.

The Galactus gun itself is fair game, though, and, again, planetary destruction weapon, and extremely limited in effect (since it's a gun, rather than a combatant). Geridath the Promethean more than cancels it out.

I want to add that I have not gotten into 1/10 of what Darkseid brings to the table here, the level of technology we're talking about.

We're talking about platonic, unstoppable, god killing bullets that move through time as they move through space, we're talking about Time Benders, we're talking about armies of GIANT billion dollar bates clones that can each partially interact with and absorb the Anti Life Equation, we're talking about multiple ways for Darkseid to resurrect his dead and at least one 'elite' who can resurrect ANY dead and turn them into zombies doing her bidding, we're talking about creatures that feed off of the fear of large groups and take on the form of their greatest fears, we're talking about the ability to beam power to any of their agents anywhere in the universe, or mutate their agents into even more powerful versions of themselves. We're talking about force fields that use the energy directed against them to constrict/confine even more strongly, devices that steal the minds or souls of their victims, standard shock troops that can give Superman a tough time, random robots that can one hit KO Wonder Woman, missiles and robots impervious to the best attacks of Jurgens era Superman, technology that can shield him Apokolips from the reach of the Anti Monitor, the effects of the Crisis, and even badly damage the AM with a single blast, city destroying cannons, devices that can cause uncontrollable fear across the populations and areas of cities, devices that can stop even a being ascending to omnipotence (Ares w/ Godwave), generate an army of Four-Armed Terrors any one of which could give Superman a rough fight (and actually immobilized him), the Gravi-Guards who were likewise able to over power Superman....

The list goes on. I coudl go on for pages and pages.

Originally posted by Desaad
Not at all. What was ignorant was likening taking technological level into account to 'going to a science fair', and belittling the massive role technological innovations like, say, the utilization of iron have historically played in military conflict.

No, your point was that technology didn't matter. But you gave nothing to back that up.

Then you're not reading or have poor reading comprehension skills. This is what I stated:

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
This is not a science fair. Tech comparisons have little to do with it. Awave just needs to show that they have the firepower to hurt herald+ characters with their tech and by their showings, they easily can. All they need to do then is let their numbers do the job.

Technological differences matter IN THIS DEBATE when tech can completely negate numbers. Such as when the invention of tanks vs simple rifles. The second line of my argumentation is my EXACT point. The Awave has shown that they can easily hurt and injure herald levelers with their basic tech. Unless Apokolips is full of trans levelers, their numbers WILL make a difference.

Originally posted by Desaad
You also gave nothing to back up that the Annihilation Wave has a greater number of combatants at their disposal, especially when I was very specific to mention that Darkseid's parademons quite literally cannot die without his permission, that his resurrection technology and omega's can resurrect any member of his elite (and have) and that he can manufacture/grow large numbers of fodder with ease.

Seriously?? You need comparative proof between the numbers on Apokolips vs the numbers of the Annihilation wave???

Did you even read Annihilation?

Originally posted by Desaad
I don't know who you're talking to, but you can't be addressing me.

Where did I say that Darkseid, as normally portrayed (ie, not Final Crisis Darkseid) is Galactus level? Where did I say that it was going to be Darkseid who was going to be using his personal power to do such a thing?

I said that his technology can replicate, or even trump, such effects. And that's the gods honest truth, hard as it may be for you to accept.

And my point was, it doesnt. You compared Galactus' attack (an attack generated by an abstract while he was in the CENTER, the absolute heart of the Awave) that took the Awave completely by surprise due to Thanos' betrayal to something that DS could replicate with his tech.

It's nice for some ppl to ignore context as well as overstate feats and relevance. DS wankers are known for that, sadly. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, it's not like Darkseid hasn't demonstrated the ability to teleport his planet to another solar system, or teleport others away, or surround his planet in a shield that can take solar-level blasts.

The fact that the Annihilation Wave had a tendency to mass like a, well, wave is a strike AGAINST them, not for them.

If DS teleports his planet, then Awave wins via BFR doesn't it? Also, teleportation tech that the Awave had (and given by Thanos) makes the shielding almost a non-factor here.

Originally posted by Desaad
Whats with your astoundingly bad attitude? I'm giving you the facts, and haven't said a thing that was factually incorrect.

I apologize, my attitude wasn't directed at you. It's more of an exasperation at your type of argumentation.

Originally posted by Desaad
Then PROVE it, yeah? If they didn't need half a dozen to take down Terrax, if they were each herald level, than a better allocation of resources would have been to assign two to take him down and leave the rest for other super powered foes.

Until you can actually demonstrate that the seekers were herald level, they aren't.

The fact that they were (in a grp) able to match the Surfer and tank his blasts easily? To walk away after the Surfer nukes the whole planet they were in? To simply leave the center of a black hole (that Surfer made)? The point wherein the Surfer even needed to resort to a form of weakness exploit (killing the currs) in order to beat them?
These feats makes them at least herald level.

Originally posted by Desaad
Hold up.

Why is it okay for YOU to make hypothetical extrapolations ("Annihilus could just manufacture a massive army of seekers to take out Darkseid's elite..."😉 but it's suddenly not okay for me to do the same?

You did see what my hypothetical was in reply to, didn't you? I'm NOT saying that Darkseid is going to do this. I'm saying he COULD, specifically in response to you putting forward that same type of argument.

A combination of the facts that a) there were ALREADY a high number of seekers as shown in Annihilation (a few dozen at least) as well as dialogue indicating that their numbers were even higher?

DS needs to show that he has a high number of Brimestones before you can start drawing parallels between them in terms of capabilities.

Originally posted by Desaad
The only real difference is I have actual showings to back up Darkseid's ability to manufacture them with ease and the power level they represent.

Actually, I happen to believe the reverse is true. The AWave has the feats while you're just using the usual "DS conceptually CAN do this" argument that is common amongs DS wankers. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
No, it wasn't. Show me proof that any of the seekers were herald level. Show me the NUMBERS of seekers that he had 'at his beck and call'.

When you can do both of these things, you'll have a point. Until then, you don't.

I'm not gonna post pages and pages of scans because you're too lazy to look it up. You'll need a TON of scans and I'm not the scan-blitzer type. It's all in Annihilation, grab a copy and come back here when you're better informed.

Originally posted by Desaad
I've read the entire Annihilation Wave crossover. I participated in discussions with Andy Schmidt, the editor, as it was coming out.

Then you obviously didn't understand much of the story then. The fact that you pointed out Ravenous' loss to Xenith as an example speaks volumes of your poor comprehension of the storyline.

Did you speedread thru Annihilation Wave?

Originally posted by Desaad
What evidence are you using? I want actual showings that back up that Seekers were herald level, individually. Because all we saw of them was that they attacked heralds in large groups and took them down. And they succeeded in taking, what, two?

See post above.

Originally posted by Desaad
Why do you keep ignoring the burden of proof that rests on you?

See above.

Originally posted by Desaad
Don't flatter yourself. Your point is simple, it's just not based on anything but speculation.

Disprove it then.

Originally posted by Desaad
Right, itself an 'ultimate weapon' style bomb.

See below.

Originally posted by Desaad
LOL, ' a little help'? There was so much going on there, what a ridiculous over simplification. Not only had the fabric of space time been messed up, but that was drawing energy from black bolt, it was using terrigen crystals, etc.

I already mentioned that it drew energy from Black Bolt. But unless Black Bolt can suddenly wreck solar systems, the power of the bomb wasn't sorely due to his abilities. Also, the Terrigen crystals were rendered inert FYI. Did you speedread thru War of Kings, too?

Plus my point was not the power of the bomb but the fact that planet-busting isn't the "end all" technology for the MU that you keep trying to make it out to be. Would be nice if you started reading actual points instead of strawmaning everything I say.

Originally posted by Desaad
And did it wreck entire systems? It's been a while since I read the actual issue, but I don't recall any talk as to how much physical damage it did. As I recall it, the device was to turn beings into Inhumans, not create physical damage. Hardly a terrifying fate, really, and one part of the crossover that never made any sense.

Yes. It DID wreck the entire system as shown by the artwork.

Originally posted by Desaad
He doesn't, actually. He's done things of greater effect nonchalantly (creating a black hole), but his actual planetary destruction feats are limited (once in a fight with Morg, which was hardly nonchalant, and once when he tried to evolve the planet, thought he planet itself wasn't destroyed, just the surface, and the effort nearly killed him).

Snicker....

You didn't read Annihilation at all did you? Surfer blew up TWO planets there. :-/ One to escape the Seekers the 2nd to prove a point.

Originally posted by Desaad
This is what I'm talking about, you're not getting it.

Why was the Harvester of Sorrows feared? For the same reason that the Atom Bomb was feared -- for the destruction it caused.

Yeah, the power of it, the effect it had, was what made it such a ferocious weapon.

No. It was feared BECAUSE it not only destroyed planets, you couldn't stop it when it wanted to destroy yours. A weapon's effectiveness is determined by 2 things: Destructive power and method of delivery.

The fact that you don't seem to know this speaks volumes of your understanding. :-/

I'll just edit out your overtly passive aggressive side comments, shall I?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
[B]Technological differences matter IN THIS DEBATE when tech can completely negate numbers. Such as when the invention of tanks vs simple rifles. The second line of my argumentation is my EXACT point. The Awave has shown that they can easily hurt and injure herald levelers with their basic tech. Unless Apokolips is full of trans levelers, their numbers WILL make a difference.

No one is arguing that the A-Wave's technology isn't going to be able to have SOME affect on the forces of Apokolips. One need not suffer no casualties to declare a victory.

The bows and arrows of the native americans certainly still hurt the invading europeans, but their technological (and biological) warfare still allowed their relatively small numbers to win the day.

When you have weapons capable of generating armies of artificial warriors or resurrect your dead, the very concept of 'numbers' becomes meaningless...one can just grow more.

When one has weapons capable of destroying entire solar systems or more, the concept of numbers becomes meaningless; one can just destroy the other side en mass.

Seriously?? You need comparative proof between the numbers on Apokolips vs the numbers of the Annihilation wave???

Did you even read Annihilation?

I think this response is pretty well indicative of the type of argument I feel I've been up against during this 'debate'. An outright refusal to provide any evidence to back up a claim, a bad attitude about being ASKED to do so, and then a not-so-subtle ad hominem attack.

Is there really any point to continuing?

And my point was, it doesnt. You compared Galactus' attack (an attack generated by an abstract while he was in the CENTER, the absolute heart of the Awave) that took the Awave completely by surprise due to Thanos' betrayal to something that DS could replicate with his tech.

Yeah, it does. With teleport technology, it's EASY to drop a solar system or planet destroying device in the center of Annihilation Wave.

And just FYI, Galactus isn't an abstract. Not only does he have DNA (as mentioned by Infinity Abyss), but he was confirmed as a physical, rather than abstractual, being in Gru's "Quasar" series, the delineation between he and abstract beings like Eternity specifically being made.

[snipped useless, baseless insult]

If DS teleports his planet, then Awave wins via BFR doesn't it?

Haha, what?

So there is no strategy allowed, is that it?

Also, teleportation tech that the Awave had (and given by Thanos) makes the shielding almost a non-factor here.

Two points here, and I'm glad you brought this up.

Darkseid has teleportation snares and limitations around Apokolips.

Point two is, this demonstrates exactly the type of difference we're dealing here. To the races and players of Annihilation, teleportation tech was a HUGE deal, a real game changer. But in the mythology of the New Gods, it's an assumption, as much a part of every day life as a car is for us. They have multiple teleportational methods (Boom Tube, Phase Out, Electron Road) to go across normal space and into different dimensions (between Apokolips/New Genesis and Earth, for instance)

I appreciate the apology, though of course it would have been nice if you hadn't laced it with your weak willed passive aggressive attacks.

The fact that they were (in a grp) able to match the Surfer and tank his blasts easily? To walk away after the Surfer nukes the whole planet they were in? To simply leave the center of a black hole (that Surfer made)? The point wherein the Surfer even needed to resort to a form of weakness exploit (killing the currs) in order to beat them?

None of that makes them herald level in combat. They don't have a single combat feat that puts them anywhere on that level. What you've described doesn't have them actually ACTING on anything, you get that don't you? The best evidence you have is that they didn't immediately die when they came face to face with the Surfer.

A combination of the facts that a) there were ALREADY a high number of seekers as shown in Annihilation (a few dozen at least)

Show me a few dozen.

as well as dialogue indicating that their numbers were even higher?

Show me the dialog. How much higher? How many?

DS needs to show that he has a high number of Brimestones before you can start drawing parallels between them in terms of capabilities.

He's shown the ability to send multiple seeds to one planet (earth) (4 separate that I can think of).

Actually, I happen to believe the reverse is true. The AWave has the feats while you're just using the usual "DS conceptually CAN do this" argument that is common amongs DS wankers. :-/

How can that possibly be, when I'm bringing in verifiable examples of technology that Darkseid has demonstrated and generals that he has access to, and you're outright ignoring all of that?

I'm not gonna post pages and pages of scans because you're too lazy to look it up.

So you have no concept of 'burden of proof', then, yeah? Give me references with page numbers and quotes, and I'll look it up.

Fair?

If you do choose to respond to this, know that unless you bring some hard, verifiable, salient points I'm not going to bother.