Darkseid & his Elite Vs Annihilation Wave

Started by Desaad4 pages
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Then you obviously didn't understand much of the story then. The fact that you pointed out Ravenous' loss to Xenith as an example speaks volumes of your poor comprehension of the storyline.

No, I accept that different writers portray things differently, and that intent trumps consistency. In the case of Ravenous with or without curs being less powerful, I'm comfortable going either way, but I don't think that DnA were considering it when they wrote the character, in the same way that the fact that they ignored the final cliffhanger of Annihilation didn't mean that it didn't happen. The curs didn't come directly from Annihilus, they were just an easy method for him to control his soldiers.

That said, if that is the take you choose to have, I'm comfortable with it -- it was a less powerful Ravenous. That doesn't change the fact, then, that the seekers have an easily exploitable weakness and zero active feats to back up this mythical combat formidability you're spinning.

Disprove it then.

Again, do you not understand "Burden of Proof", and how that works? You're making a claim, and one that is totally nonsensical (that the destructive potential of the weapon has nothing to do with the fear with which it is perceived).

Even still, I've made the effort to get you to understand why you're wrong. Since you give no in book documentation to support this, I've used the only real world parallel that is appropriate (the Atomic Bomb).

I already mentioned that it drew energy from Black Bolt.

Not in your response to me, you didn't. You mentioned that the Kree had 'a little help from the Inhumans', ignoring that it was designed almost totally by the Inhumans' resident Super Genius Maximus and that it reflects not at all on the Kree level of technology.

But unless Black Bolt can suddenly wreck solar systems, the power of the bomb wasn't sorely due to his abilities.

Black Bolt's voice has often been utillized to power weapons and generate effects that he normally wouldn't be capable of.

Also, the Terrigen crystals were rendered inert FYI. Did you speedread thru War of Kings, too?

Yeah, it's not as if I mentioned that I hadn't read the book in a while, yes? And it's not as if the Terrigen Crytals were the most active part of the bomb as initially intended, yeah? And it's not as if the Bomb was being powered partially by Vulcan, right?

Again, YOU are the one who has badly misrepresented this feat as something applicable to the space faring races in general. This was an ultimate weapon designed by a genius far beyond anything the Kree was capable of, one that had been consistently improving upon Kree weaponry since the Royal Family took power. Add to that it was drawing on non replenishable power sources, and your point -- which was, after all, that 'planet destroying weaponry was no big deal' -- is revealed to be a woefully unsupportable.

Plus my point was not the power of the bomb but the fact that planet-busting isn't the "end all" technology for the MU that you keep trying to make it out to be. Would be nice if you started reading actual points instead of strawmaning everything I say.

The saddest part of this is you really don't understand why dismantling your argument above revealed the support for your point to be flimsier that grass.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that planet destroying technology is the 'end all' for technology in the MU. I'm saying that in the context of this story, in the science fiction MU scene, it certainly was.

Characters like Reed Richards or Dr. Doom develop technology to create pocket universes or kill celestials. But in terms of the MU at large, at least in Annihilation, two things were an extremely big deal -- a planet destroying weapon and teleportation technology. Both of these are commonplace in the mythology of the New Gods, even when they are at their worst.

Yes. It DID wreck the entire system as shown by the artwork.

Nope, sorry. Only thing definitively shown destroyed was a planet and a moon.

You didn't read Annihilation at all did you? Surfer blew up TWO planets there. :-/ One to escape the Seekers the 2nd to prove a point.

Haha, what? In issue one, you better have some evidence that Surfer destroyed a planet. Not only was there not a planet to destroy, just a debris field, but ON TOP OF THAT all we saw is that he released a big blast of energy as he left to keep them off his tale.

You've literally invented this event. Perhaps now you'll see how warped your perception is, how desperate you are for any of your points to hold merit?

He destroyed one planet, after being powered up, and the act of it made Ravenous say "How...what have you become?" indicating, I might add, that such a thing was impossibly impressive and far beyond HIS reach.

The fact that you don't seem to know this speaks volumes of your understanding. :-/

Again, you're being facile -- is an Atomic Bomb feared because of the destructive power it holds or not?

Your argument, from the way you've presented it, is that destroying planets is commonplace in MU space tech. But what was constantly stressed was that this was a PLANET DESTROYER, and you've ignored it as if it was some small add on. What was it that Super Skrull first commented on, when he talked about it in awed tones? It was the fact that it dissembled a planet. "A weapon of incredible power", 'the most powerful weapon the Annihilation Wave has".

Interpreting at anything else is pure fanboyism.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that it was 'unstoppable' was terrifying, but the fact that it was unstoppable only further serves to underscore the low level of military technology we're dealing with, at least as compares to Apokolips.

There was a member of Darkseid's Elite who can resurrect the dead. She can match most of the Awave's cannon fodder. Team Darkseid wins.

Originally posted by Desaad
I'll just edit out your overtly passive aggressive side comments, shall I?

No one is arguing that the A-Wave's technology isn't going to be able to have SOME affect on the forces of Apokolips. One need not suffer no casualties to declare a victory.

The bows and arrows of the native americans certainly still hurt the invading europeans, but their technological (and biological) warfare still allowed their relatively small numbers to win the day.

When you have weapons capable of generating armies of artificial warriors or resurrect your dead, the very concept of 'numbers' becomes meaningless...one can just grow more.

When one has weapons capable of destroying entire solar systems or more, the concept of numbers becomes meaningless; one can just destroy the other side en mass.

Numbers are never meaningless for as long as the technology of one side can still affect the other side. Case in point: Tech superiority didn't really help Magellan when he fought against the natives in the Mactan Isles did it?

Also, being able to resurrect a limited number of parademons vs a virtually limitless swarm of enemies still puts the favor with the swarm. :-/

Also, en masse destruction can be done by the Annihilation Wave as well. :-/ It's not as if their weapons are just centered on one-on-one. They've shown that they can wreck planets via their ship weaponry (w/o using the Harvester). And I doubt that even Apokolips has anything that can protect them against the Galactus gun.

Originally posted by Desaad
I think this response is pretty well indicative of the type of argument I feel I've been up against during this 'debate'. An outright refusal to provide any evidence to back up a claim, a bad attitude about being ASKED to do so, and then a not-so-subtle ad hominem attack.

Is there really any point to continuing?

You ask me to provide proof of what should be common knowledge to anyone who's read the Annihilation Wave. You mentioned that you NEEDED proof to prove the numbers superiority of the wave. The way I see it, either you're grossly uninformed or just trying to stall me by forcing me to provide scans on things you should already know. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, it does. With teleport technology, it's EASY to drop a solar system or planet destroying device in the center of Annihilation Wave.

Planet destroying or system destroying blasts will do little vs the wave. The fact that they encompassed THREE whole systems as well as the spaces between these whole systems speaks volumes of the actual size of the wave and how little these weapons can affect them.

Originally posted by Desaad
And just FYI, Galactus isn't an abstract. Not only does he have DNA (as mentioned by Infinity Abyss), but he was confirmed as a physical, rather than abstractual, being in Gru's "Quasar" series, the delineation between he and abstract beings like Eternity specifically being made.

We're talking about 2 different things here. Power level tier rankings and conceptual roles in the cosmic hierarchy are not the same thing. I'm talking about power tier rankings here.

Originally posted by Desaad
Haha, what?

So there is no strategy allowed, is that it?

Running away would constitute a loss via forum rules. Hey, I didn't make the rules.

Originally posted by Desaad
Two points here, and I'm glad you brought this up.

Darkseid has teleportation snares and limitations around Apokolips.

Thanos' prep can just as easily bypass that. I see DS and Thanos prep to be equal.

Originally posted by Desaad
Point two is, this demonstrates exactly the type of difference we're dealing here. To the races and players of Annihilation, teleportation tech was a HUGE deal, a real game changer. But in the mythology of the New Gods, it's an assumption, as much a part of every day life as a car is for us. They have multiple teleportational methods (Boom Tube, Phase Out, Electron Road) to go across normal space and into different dimensions (between Apokolips/New Genesis and Earth, for instance)

Thanos' presence in the Annihilation Wave tipped the scales. Thanos didn't just have basic teleport tech (that most other races have) his was at a higher level than what anyone could duplicate at that time. And yes, teleportation has always been part of Thanos' everyday life as well.

Originally posted by Desaad
None of that makes them herald level in combat. They don't have a single combat feat that puts them anywhere on that level. What you've described doesn't have them actually ACTING on anything, you get that don't you? The best evidence you have is that they didn't immediately die when they came face to face with the Surfer.

Surviving and escaping Black Holes, inflicting damage vs herald levelers and tanking Surfer's blasts DOESN'T make them herald levelers??? Well we seem to have different opinions on what constitute herald level abilities.

Plus the fact that the Opposing Force is the conceptual equal to the Power Cosmic from within the Negative Zone and that it was mentioned MANY times in dialogue as well as the official Annihilation Wave bio (Nova Corps database) that their powers matched that of the heralds?

Originally posted by Desaad
Show me a few dozen.

Show me the dialog. How much higher? How many?

Acual numbers: There were at least 4 (plus Ravenous) when they took down Air Walker about 8 when they took down Terrax. Four more when they pursued the Surfer (not the same Ravenous grp as he was in Annihulus' flagship at the time and this grp was killed when their currs were killed when Firelord and Red Shift arrived). As well as an off panel mention Red Shift that he was attacked by a group of seekers himself. That's at least 2 dozen already not counting those hunting Galactus as well as the other heralds.

Dialogue: We are many. For every one of us you strike down, a dozen more will take up the hunt!

Originally posted by Desaad
He's shown the ability to send multiple seeds to one planet (earth) (4 separate that I can think of).

So, much less numbers than what you're claiming...?

Originally posted by Desaad
How can that possibly be, when I'm bringing in verifiable examples of technology that Darkseid has demonstrated and generals that he has access to, and you're outright ignoring all of that?

Ok then. Provide proof that he's managed to teleport solar system wrecker bombs into space fleets in the past. Prove that he has access to a limitless supply of Brimestones (because you made the claim that he could).

Originally posted by Desaad
So you have no concept of 'burden of proof', then, yeah? Give me references with page numbers and quotes, and I'll look it up.

Fair?

If you do choose to respond to this, know that unless you bring some hard, verifiable, salient points I'm not going to bother.

Heck, read the hardbounds, all the info you need is right there. It's hard to provide all the scans you keep asking for because you literally ask for a swarm of scans. Read Annihilation hardbounds Book 1-3 and you'll find that all I mentioned can be found there.

So you're going to ignore any requests of actual proof of your statements as me asking for a swarm of scans, even when I've repeatedly said that isn't what I need?

Haha, yeah, we're done here.

Originally posted by Desaad
No, I accept that different writers portray things differently, and that intent trumps consistency. In the case of Ravenous with or without curs being less powerful, I'm comfortable going either way, but I don't think that DnA were considering it when they wrote the character, in the same way that the fact that they ignored the final cliffhanger of Annihilation didn't mean that it didn't happen. The curs didn't come directly from Annihilus, they were just an easy method for him to control his soldiers.

That said, if that is the take you choose to have, I'm comfortable with it -- it was a less powerful Ravenous. That doesn't change the fact, then, that the seekers have an easily exploitable weakness and zero active feats to back up this mythical combat formidability you're spinning.

It was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that the curss were the source of the seeker's power and that their power and durability was far lower w/o them (as when Firelord and Stardust literally tore them apart after first killing the currs). It doesn't go "either way"

Well, it's your choice if you wish to ignore their showings vs the Surfer and the other heralds as well as their bios. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Again, do you not understand "Burden of Proof", and how that works? You're making a claim, and one that is totally nonsensical (that the destructive potential of the weapon has nothing to do with the fear with which it is perceived).

I presented points and instances. You just simply ignore them (as in the instance of the Seeker's herald-level abilities).

Originally posted by Desaad
Even still, I've made the effort to get you to understand why you're wrong. Since you give no in book documentation to support this, I've used the only real world parallel that is appropriate (the Atomic Bomb).

Not in your response to me, you didn't. You mentioned that the Kree had 'a little help from the Inhumans', ignoring that it was designed almost totally by the Inhumans' resident Super Genius Maximus and that it reflects not at all on the Kree level of technology.

Black Bolt's voice has often been utillized to power weapons and generate effects that he normally wouldn't be capable of.

Yeah, it's not as if I mentioned that I hadn't read the book in a while, yes? And it's not as if the Terrigen Crytals were the most active part of the bomb as initially intended, yeah? And it's not as if the Bomb was being powered partially by Vulcan, right?

Again, YOU are the one who has badly misrepresented this feat as something applicable to the space faring races in general. This was an ultimate weapon designed by a genius far beyond anything the Kree was capable of, one that had been consistently improving upon Kree weaponry since the Royal Family took power. Add to that it was drawing on non replenishable power sources, and your point -- which was, after all, that 'planet destroying weaponry was no big deal' -- is revealed to be a woefully unsupportable.

Very long post with a lot of points that has little relevance to the topic at hand.

I will reiterate my point: I mentioned that "end-all" weapons systems in the MU isn't as low down the ladder as you keep trying to paint it to be. Weapons of far greater potency have been created and have been shown to be within the levels of technology for the MU spacefaring races.

Nega bombs were used extensively during the Shi'Ar-Kree War. It's not as rare as high up in the tech level as you keep indicating it to be.

Originally posted by Desaad
The saddest part of this is you really don't understand why dismantling your argument above revealed the support for your point to be flimsier that grass.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that planet destroying technology is the 'end all' for technology in the MU. I'm saying that in the context of this story, in the science fiction MU scene, it certainly was.

Where I disagree with you. The AWave has destroyed planets w/o the aid of the Harvester w/c makes your argument (that a planet-destroying weapon was the pinnacle of technological achievement for the AWave) incorrect. If was a superweapon because of its unstoppability as well as the power it possessed.

Why the hell would the Awave WANT a solar system busting weapon anyway? They needed to feed a lot due to the size of the AWave and the weapon turned planets to food. :-/ Destroying entire solar systems doesn't seem like a very productive means to meet their ends.

Originally posted by Desaad
Characters like Reed Richards or Dr. Doom develop technology to create pocket universes or kill celestials. But in terms of the MU at large, at least in Annihilation, two things were an extremely big deal -- a planet destroying weapon and teleportation technology. Both of these are commonplace in the mythology of the New Gods, even when they are at their worst.

Again, planet destroying weapons are commonplace. Everyone had one. This was not the pinnacle of achievement for technology in the MU in general. :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Nope, sorry. Only thing definitively shown destroyed was a planet and a moon.

And the fact that it tore a rip in reality parsecs across. You saying the tear wasn't anywhere within the area-of-effect/destructive radius of the bomb? :-/

Originally posted by Desaad
Haha, what? In issue one, you better have some evidence that Surfer destroyed a planet. Not only was there not a planet to destroy, just a debris field, but ON TOP OF THAT all we saw is that he released a big blast of energy as he left to keep them off his tale.

You've literally invented this event. Perhaps now you'll see how warped your perception is, how desperate you are for any of your points to hold merit?

Well, I reread the issue. I will concede the fact that my memory of the event it different. It was indeed a debris field. However, it still seemed like a big chunk of Xandar from the artwork and the Seekers easily survived the encounter. My point still stands. Planets have been wrecked nonchalantly by Galactus Heralds.

Originally posted by Desaad
He destroyed one planet, after being powered up, and the act of it made Ravenous say "How...what have you become?" indicating, I might add, that such a thing was impossibly impressive and far beyond HIS reach.

Which still proves that he's destroyed planets nonchalantly. Also, your attempt at trying to downplay Ravenous' abilities by claiming that it was the planet destruction that seemed to impress Ravenous is fallacious. Especially as even the weakest of the heralds (Terrax) has been able to one-shot planets. :-/

So you agree that the Surfer received an upgrade during Annihilation? Good. I'll keep that in mind for future debates.

Originally posted by Desaad
Again, you're being facile -- is an Atomic Bomb feared because of the destructive power it holds or not?

Your argument, from the way you've presented it, is that destroying planets is commonplace in MU space tech. But what was constantly stressed was that this was a PLANET DESTROYER, and you've ignored it as if it was some small add on. What was it that Super Skrull first commented on, when he talked about it in awed tones? It was the fact that it dissembled a planet. "A weapon of incredible power", 'the most powerful weapon the Annihilation Wave has".

And the fact that they couldn't STOP this weapon has no bearing on why it is feared right? The fact that he had to capture the head scientist of the Harvester just to find out if it had any weaknesses also meant that he was just simply afraid of its destructive power amirite?

Again. Sheesh....

Originally posted by Desaad
Interpreting at anything else is pure fanboyism.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that it was 'unstoppable' was terrifying, but the fact that it was unstoppable only further serves to underscore the low level of military technology we're dealing with, at least as compares to Apokolips.

Except that well, planet destroying is something ALL races have.

You REALLY don't see how fearsome an unstoppable/indestructible planet destroying weapon is? :-/

It's getting late and I need to get to bed. Will debate with you as soon as I wake up.

Originally posted by Desaad
So you're going to ignore any requests of actual proof of your statements as me asking for a swarm of scans, even when I've repeatedly said that isn't what I need?

Haha, yeah, we're done here.

I presented issue numbers, did head counts and pointed out items in dialogues and bios as you requested. :-/ did you even read my post?