Worst things heroes have ever done?

Originally posted by Entity
Well what really was the alternative? I mean anyone that makes that statement I ask, What would you have done different?

I mean there really was no alternative solution in my opinion. Unless you'd been Dr. Manhattan, they said not even he could've stopped it entirely but I really find that hard to believe. Besides as you saw reading the story he really just didn't care or even believe he could change things. I donno maybe he really couldn't. Seeing things from his perspective could really show things we can't even conceive and perhaps he's right. We really have no way to judge.

But more on point, as just a single mere man watching armageddon unfold right before the worlds eyes. What else can you do besides sit back and watch the world end or deal with it and make the hard choice, no one wants to be responsible for, for the greater good and save the world in the process?

I don't want to derail this thread so I'll just say this. Firstly, I don't have to offer an alternative to say that I think an action committed was wrong. Ozymandias made the difficult choice and he clearly felt, aside from Dr Manhattan (bear in mind, who didn't do this) qualified to make the choice to destroy NY. Now everyone will agree that he was stuck between a rock and a hard place and we might agree that he was qualified enough to make the call. What is ambiguous is whether it is morally justifiable. You can on one hand laud him as a hero, but in retrospect it's unusual for hero and mass murderer to go hand in hand. He ultimately falls into the morally grey question of "Does the end justify the means?" Or worse still the terrifying possibility: was he in a situation where there was no right answer, just two awful outcomes?

The biggest issue is that he HAD to believe he was doing he right thing, HAD to believe he was qualified enough to do this. Note by the end of the novel, he receives no reassurances from Dr Manhattan, further heightening the moral ambiguity of his actions. The very fact that he did it without consulting anyone, even with some attempting to outright stop him suggests a strong degree of controversy behind his actions. Assuming Dr Manhattan was truly God-like and had committed the act himself or clearly condoned it, then Ozymandias, by the very nature of morality would be justified. But this doesn't happen, hence the ambiguity.

Originally posted by Entity
Thats something about Lex Luthor, normally he's portrayed as just a rich arrogant self centered bastard but I've always loved best the few stories when he's portrayed as more of a gray area misguided anti hero. When its shown he actually believes he can and wants to help humanity grow. Believing Superman doesn't deserve his power, isn't willing to do what he really can, whats necessary and is holding humanity back by making us dependent on him. If written right it's a point of view that can really be more understood and allow Lex to be seen as more than a pure mustache twirling evil selfish dickhead.

I think you're absolutely right. It's that layer of complexity that aligned him in my mind with Ozymandias. A real life villain doesn't commit a crime and explain their actions as "COS I'M EVIL!!!!" (Although that's exactly what Wally West does when possessing Luthor in JLU animated series). The terrible reality of life is that even those who are doing wrong don't think that they are the villain. Everyone thinks they are the hero of their story and Luthor shouldn't be written as an exception to this rule.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah killing someone in comic books is almost never a permanent solution.

"Your 'no-nonsense' solutions just don't hold water in this modern world of time travel and jet-powered apes."

Personally Batman feels he has a good reason for not killing the Joker and thats it really. I won't even attempt to provide a rational explanation though. I'll just repeat it over and over again.

Originally posted by Q99
He wasn't quite mind controlled, but was on a villain-induced mental breakdown.

The worst thing Janet ever did, probably, was find out Hank Pym had disassociative personality disorder (i.e. two personalities), not tell his friends, marry the other personality, and then when his personality disorder was cured she held his main personality- which she knew didn't know about it and had no choice in the matter- to the marriage.

That's messed up on multiple levels.

Not to mention Hank was interested in her in the first place because she looked just like his dead wife, who he had made up the wasp costume for before meeting Janet which he gave to her almost immediately after meeting her.

Then Hank started a thing with Jocasta who's his robot 'granddaughter' with the personality of the woman who had tricked/forced him into marrying her and whom he had run simulations on whether or not Janet would get back together with him...

Let's just say their relationship had many problems.

Plus there is Ultron, Pym's 'son', who wants to kill his 'father' and has a thing about Jan, his 'mother' and transfers Jan's essence into Jocasta so he can marry her.

It's really no wonder Pym is so messed up.

^ ****ing hellll. God damn thats some ****ed up shit. When you read stuff like this as a kid it all seems so innocent.

facepalm @ anyone calling Pym a wife beater. The Ultron thing does stick out though.

Cyclops with X-Force and the Skrulls.

Black Panther keeping the cure to cancer to himself.

Hal and his whole Parallax thing...

Originally posted by -Pr-

Black Panther keeping the cure to cancer to himself.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Black Panther keeping the cure to cancer to himself.

When did this happen?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
When did this happen?

a year or two back, when Hudlin was writing the Panther books.

Originally posted by basilisk
Plus there is Ultron, Pym's 'son', who wants to kill his 'father' and has a thing about Jan, his 'mother' and transfers Jan's essence into Jocasta so he can marry her.

It's really no wonder Pym is so messed up.

Also Ultron, based on Pym's mind, once possessed Tony Stark, and turned his body into a copy of Janet's.

It's lucky the grand children (Vision, Victor Mancha) have managed to mostly steer clear of this kind of thing. Probably because their brains aren't based on Hank or Janet.

No one else agrees with Solar?

Originally posted by willRules

I think you're absolutely right. It's that layer of complexity that aligned him in my mind with Ozymandias. A real life villain doesn't commit a crime and explain their actions as "COS I'M EVIL!!!!" (Although that's exactly what Wally West does when possessing Luthor in JLU animated series). The terrible reality of life is that even those who are doing wrong don't think that they are the villain. Everyone thinks they are the hero of their story and Luthor shouldn't be written as an exception to this rule.

I think comics & other media have gotten further along with this. No one is calling themselves the Brotherhood Of Evil Mutants or the Secret Society Of Super Villains anymore. Bad guys tend to think of themselves as independent operators, unwilling to be constrained by society's rules. Lex sits in that strata of grey when written at his best. They are certainly worse people in the world. Only when you get to the godly layer of existence, do beings like Mephisto & Darkseid declare evil to be good because it works.

Originally posted by roughrider
I think comics & other media have gotten further along with this. No one is calling themselves the Brotherhood Of Evil Mutants or the Secret Society Of Super Villains anymore. Bad guys tend to think of themselves as independent operators, unwilling to be constrained by society's rules. Lex sits in that strata of grey when written at his best. They are certainly worse people in the world. Only when you get to the godly layer of existence, do beings like Mephisto & Darkseid declare evil to be good because it works.

I agree with you except I'd say that even Lex is like Darkseid in the sense that he (through his actions) declares evil to be good. He is after all, a villain. Darkseid is essentially a glorified version of this immoral attitude.

Other than that, I think you're spot on. Simply put; Lex thinks he is good, but is not.

Originally posted by roughrider
I think comics & other media have gotten further along with this. No one is calling themselves the Brotherhood Of Evil Mutants or the Secret Society Of Super Villains anymore. Bad guys tend to think of themselves as independent operators, unwilling to be constrained by society's rules. Lex sits in that strata of grey when written at his best. They are certainly worse people in the world. Only when you get to the godly layer of existence, do beings like Mephisto & Darkseid declare evil to be good because it works.

Though it varies with the writer, sometimes he genuinely seems to believe that reality is chaos and only by imposing his will on it can there be true order.