Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs. Living Tribunal AND Eternity

Originally posted by zopzop
There simply is no fight. It was shown on panel that they and many many other cosmics were no match against the PR Beyonder.

I'm guessing Colossus is arguing that there is no point discussing this PR Beyonder business because its been retconned, re-retconned and re-re-retconned to death.

CBC is a unique individual.

Originally posted by zopzop
There simply is no fight. It was shown on panel that they and many many other cosmics were no match against the PR Beyonder.

I'm guessing Colossus is arguing that there is no point discussing this PR Beyonder business because its been retconned, re-retconned and re-re-retconned to death.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That was like the only time he got hurt though. And the whole time he was limiting himself anyway.

I'll try to remember other moments where I went "Beyonder's durability is crappy! WTF!". I'm sure my opinion on Beyonder's poor durability vs his overall power came from more than one instance...! Hehe.

I'm sure I can remember a few more if I give myself some time to think about it. 😛

Edit. I think there was an instance where Kubik almost crushed him....

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Edit. I think there was an instance where Kubik almost crushed him....

Originally posted by Galan007
That occurred in the issue Beyonder was retconned in.

Really? From what I remember, that happened around the time long before he "died". My memory is hazy on the sequence of the retcon. But I certainly never thought it was during that issue.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ iirc, it was only stated that Beyonder was limiting himself against Alpha Flight (SW II #4), and Dr. Strange (a tie-in to SW II #5.) It was not stated that he was holding back during his confrontation with Phoenix (which occurred around SW II #8.)

If he wasn't holding back, he would react differently. He was actually always holding back, if he wouldn't, he would go all out and all of MU would be destroyed.
He was holding back or limiting himself in any case.
And she also actually surprised him with attack.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Really? From what I remember, that happened around the time long before he "died". My memory is hazy on the sequence of the retcon. But I certainly never thought it was during that issue.

Originally posted by Xplosive

And she also actually surprised him with attack.

Nope, he went there demanding his power back after she refused to crack open the M'krann Crystal and destroy all reality. He was ready for a fight.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nope, he went there demanding his power back after she refused to crack open the M'krann Crystal and destroy all reality. He was ready for a fight.

Then why he didn't fight? He could do to her anything from any distance, he didn't even need to get near her. I always had feeling for Beyonder that is was all play for him to amuse himself in one way or another.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Then why he didn't fight? He could do to her anything from any distance, he didn't even need to get near her. I always had feeling for Beyonder that is was all play for him to amuse himself in one way or another.

Don't get me wrong, he could have crushed her with ease. I just found it impressive that she was the only one that ever made him "take a knee" so to speak.

Just remembered that Rachel was amped with Beyonder's own power when she floored him:

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Really? From what I remember, that happened around the time long before he "died". My memory is hazy on the sequence of the retcon. But I certainly never thought it was during that issue.

Originally posted by zopzop
Don't get me wrong, he could have crushed her with ease. I just found it impressive that she was the only one that ever made him "take a knee" so to speak.

And actually how others reacted when Beyonder was around, it was/is impressive, but truly impressive would be if she wouldn't be amped by Beyonder himself.

Originally posted by Galan007
Just remembered that Rachel was amped with Beyonder's own power when she floored him:

Beyonder was retconned in F4 #319. Kubik owned him in F4 #319.

Cool2x! 🙂 My memory was always hazy on that era of comics. Was a looooong time ago when I read these issues. Ty for refreshing my memory.

With my memory/account corrected, I recant my previous statement on the Beyonder's durability. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
Just remembered that Rachel was amped with Beyonder's own power when she floored him

Originally posted by Xplosive
And actually how others reacted when Beyonder was around, it was/is impressive, but truly impressive would be if she wouldn't be amped by Beyonder himself.

Yes I realize she was amped. But that's sort of the point. He supposedly amped her to the level of power her mom was when she was the Phoenix.

Rachel amped to "Jean as Phoenix level of power" floored Beyonder (yes I know she didn't KO or kill him and I'm not even saying she could) no other abstract or cosmic accomplished such a feat.

Where did it say that Rachel was only as strong as Jean grey as the Phoenix after the amp?

I don't know of this mix up has been fixed, but let me make sure so ... bump.

Originally posted by rotiart

Where did it say that Rachel was only as strong as Jean grey as the Phoenix after the amp?

In fact, it's clearly stated in the book she became everything her mother was and "much, much more" ...

That aside,
goodness this thread has Beyonder's account with Rachel all wrong.

Rachel never attacked Beyonder, in any way.

Rachel gave Beyonder his power back, but she also gave him the universal
awareness she had just experienced prior to Beyonder asking for his power back.

At that point, Beyonder had never connected so intimately with the entire universe,
and all the dreams, fears, hopes and memories of every single living being
was overwhelming for Beyonder because of it's uniqueness and preciousness.

So, Rachel never floored Beyonder, not ever.

Beyonder fell from overwhelming sentiment for life in the universe.

====================================

Anyhow,
Rachel hurting or even attacking Beyonder is a huge misconception.

======================================

While wielding the power of the PF and much, much more!
Rachel had just touched the life of every common being in the universe,
their desires, their pains, their dreams ect.

When Beyonder took back the power he gave Rachel,
she threw back at him the experiences of every being in the universe,
Beyonder was overwhelmed because he experienced every single individual life simultaneously,
he had no idea common folk could be so precious.

......................................................................................

The on panel proof:

......................................................................................

Rachel (Beyonder empowered) touches every being in the Universe:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11663884_R1.jpg]

You can read it completely but this excerpt from that scan says it all:

"She touches everyone, she experiences their dreams,
their yearnings, their terrors,
all they were and are and hope to be,
the totality of their beings"

......................................................................................

Rachel also freaks out from the experience:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11663885_R3.jpg]

......................................................................................

Rachel was never able to hurt Beyonder physically in any way shape or form:

"You are what you are solely because I will it"

......................................................................................

This is when Beyonder takes the power he gave Rachel back:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11663886_R5.jpg]

What is it that Beyonder can't stop,
what is it that overwhelmed Beyonder?

What Rachel had just collected from every individual.

"He sought power --- but this is far more --
All that Phoenix experienced
the totality of Life, in all its forms"

Which is why Storm says,

"We each have our little lives, our destinies, our unique paths to walk"

......................................................................................

Beyonder even appreciated learning of the preciousness of individual life:

"Thank you for what you have shown me this night,
it is strange --- but I find myself envying your ... Humanity"

======================================

Did I mention?

This is all concerning Beyonder after he self-imposed limitations on himself,
to fit in with microbes that were the LT, Eternity, and all the rest of Marvel.

morning mr. m

Beyonder wins.

Going with Pre Retcon Beyonder, who was apparently millions of times more powerful than the Marvel Universe combined, and in SW2 earned the fear of both Eternity and LT.

i wonder how powerful lt is now

hmm

😛