Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Like I said though - Wolverine has already triumphed over someone with several Millennia of combat experience.Even Zealot has been up staged by Agent Orange. He is - what? - a class 5-10 FBI cyborg, not a Millennia old super ninja and he is the one who killed the Coda's elite super assassin the Grand Sarin (who has beat Zealot), and has beat down Grifter twice.
Yes, because in comics things happen for the sake of story. If you take the story element out of it though you are left with what should happen a majority of times when they fight. Wolverine has been knocked out by Daredevil with a strike to the throat. That's as relevent to this fight as AO upstaging Zealot. ABC logic....useful tool sometimes, but you can't rely on it.
Originally posted by Lunacyde
Yes, because in comics things happen for the sake of story. If you take the story element out of it though you are left with what should happen a majority of times when they fight. Wolverine has been knocked out by Daredevil with a strike to the throat. That's as relevent to this fight as AO upstaging Zealot. ABC logic....useful tool sometimes, but you can't rely on it.
Like Battlehammer said, DD knocked out Wolverine (actually knocked down... but whatever) in a Garth Ennis comic. That example isn't as relevant as AO upstaging Zealot... or even close to it. Ennis does his level best to make Wolverine look stupid at every oppertunity, it is just one of several PIS examples of Ennis' Wolverine looking stupid and has no actually relevance to any Wolverine discussion.
Team Wildstorm wins. Team Marvel lacks versatility.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Like Battlehammer said, DD knocked out Wolverine (actually knocked down... but whatever) in a Garth Ennis comic. That example isn't as relevant as AO upstaging Zealot... or even close to it. Ennis does his level best to make Wolverine look stupid at every oppertunity, it is just one of several PIS examples of Ennis' Wolverine looking stupid and has no actually relevance to any Wolverine discussion.
So all fights by Wildstorm characters are legitimate but not Wolverine's? Caught you at last. biscuits
Provide on-panel evidence of Midnighter saying he can only come up with an average of 4 winning scenarios per fight.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Like Battlehammer said, DD knocked out Wolverine (actually knocked down... but whatever) in a Garth Ennis comic. That example isn't as relevant as AO upstaging Zealot... or even close to it. Ennis does his level best to make Wolverine look stupid at every oppertunity, it is just one of several PIS examples of Ennis' Wolverine looking stupid and has no actually relevance to any Wolverine discussion.
Pardon my over-generalizations, but it seems to me that a number of unspecified Wolverine fans like to hold glaring double standards. They like to quote his years of battle experience against lesser experienced opponents, but when the battle shifts to the point where he himself is the less- experienced fighter they demand that experience has no relevance at all. Whether or not he has beaten characters with more experience than him doesn't matter either because those characters =/= The characters in this thread. Just because Wolverine has beaten characters with more experience than him doesn't mean he can beat all characters with more experience than him, or even a majority. What a bold fallacy you are trying to perpetuate. We are also not merely talking about years of experience, but also years of some of the most impressive and intense training in all of comics.
Also as in most cases the same Wolverine fans continue to demand we use only the high-end showings of Wolverine completely disregarding any low showings, while also bringing up low-end showings of the characters they are arguing against. Wolverine fans also like to deny any time their character doesn't do well as poor writing or PIS.
It's getting ridiculous, I would ask you to refrain from your blatant double standards.
Originally posted by Lunacyde
Pardon my over-generalizations, but it seems to me that a number of unspecified Wolverine fans like to hold glaring double standards. They like to quote his years of battle experience against lesser experienced opponents, but when the battle shifts to the point where he himself is the less- experienced fighter they demand that experience has no relevance at all. Whether or not he has beaten characters with more experience than him doesn't matter either because those characters =/= The characters in this thread. Just because Wolverine has beaten characters with more experience than him doesn't mean he can beat all characters with more experience than him, or even a majority. What a bold fallacy you are trying to perpetuate. We are also not merely talking about years of experience, but also years of some of the most impressive and intense training in all of comics.Also as in most cases the same Wolverine fans continue to demand we use only the high-end showings of Wolverine completely disregarding any low showings, while also bringing up low-end showings of the characters they are arguing against. Wolverine fans also like to deny any time their character doesn't do well as poor writing or PIS.
It's getting ridiculous, I would ask you to refrain from your blatant double standards.
🙄
Please. There is no double standard, you are citing references made by a specific writer where the entire purpose was to make the character look foolish... and you are shocked and insulted to find out that such examples hold no relevance? Seriously? You don't see why it doesn't hold any water? There is no double standard. There can't be a double standard. There are no equivalent examples in the publication history of any of the other characters in this thread, with the dredge you are basing your opinions on for Wolverine. No one has written Zealot with the solo purpose of making her look stupid, and even if they did I would have the sense not to bring it up. The closest thing to the bull shit examples you are bringing up that any of the Wildstorm characters having is Kev killing the Authority... and no one every brings up that as serious point, and yet virtually every Wolverine thread someone cites the same example of Daredevil throat punching Wolverine in an Ennis comic. You should be EMBARRASSED that you even brought up such an example.
Experience doesn't matter. It is a universal truth in comicdom. You can't act like this is just an isolated Wolverine argument as much as you'd like but anyone who as spent any amount of time on this - or any comic book - forum, knows better. Thor isn't as skilled as Wolverine. Hercules isn't as skilled as Captain America. Wolverine isn't as skilled as the Mandarin. Majestic isn't as skilled as Grifter. Wonder Woman isn't as skilled as Batman. Experience is a not a significant factor, it never has been, pretending that it is in this case is asinine.
It wasn't a serious point that Wolverine should actually lose to DD....you clearly missed my entire point....which was to say for the sake of story (or writers wishes) characters can be made to do anything. I was trying to show the difference between comics (where the writer can make whatever he wishes happen) and a forum battle where things play out quite differently.
Originally posted by Lunacyde
It wasn't a serious point that Wolverine should actually lose to DD....you clearly missed my entire point....which was to say for the sake of story (or writers wishes) characters can be made to do anything. I was trying to show the difference between comics (where the writer can make whatever he wishes happen) and a forum battle where things play out quite differently.
What you were trying to do was draw parallels between Agent Orange beating the Grand Sarin and the absolute bottom of the barrel gutter filth of low ball Wolverine PIS showings which is DD long punching him in the throat... and no such parallels exist.
Grand Sarin was in half a dozen issues, all written by the same author, she beat Zealot and was subsequently killed by Agent Orange... and Joe Casey wasn't trying to make anyone look stupid.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What you were trying to do was draw parallels between Agent Orange beating the Grand Sarin and the absolute bottom of the barrel gutter filth of low ball Wolverine PIS showings which is DD long punching him in the throat... and no such parallels exist.Grand Sarin was in half a dozen issues, all written by the same author, she beat Zealot and was subsequently killed by Agent Orange... and Joe Casey wasn't trying to make anyone look stupid.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
🙄Please. There is no double standard, you are citing references made by a specific writer where the entire purpose was to make the character look foolish... and you are shocked and insulted to find out that such examples hold no relevance? Seriously? You don't see why it doesn't hold any water? There is no double standard. There can't be a double standard. There are no equivalent examples in the publication history of any of the other characters in this thread, with the dredge you are basing your opinions on for Wolverine. No one has written Zealot with the solo purpose of making her look stupid, and even if they did I would have the sense not to bring it up. The closest thing to the bull shit examples you are bringing up that any of the Wildstorm characters having is Kev killing the Authority... and no one every brings up that as serious point, and yet virtually every Wolverine thread someone cites the same example of Daredevil throat punching Wolverine in an Ennis comic. You should be EMBARRASSED that you even brought up such an example.
Experience doesn't matter. It is a universal truth in comicdom. You can't act like this is just an isolated Wolverine argument as much as you'd like but anyone who as spent any amount of time on this - or any comic book - forum, knows better. Thor isn't as skilled as Wolverine. Hercules isn't as skilled as Captain America. Wolverine isn't as skilled as the Mandarin. Majestic isn't as skilled as Grifter. Wonder Woman isn't as skilled as Batman. Experience is a not a significant factor, it never has been, pretending that it is in this case is asinine.
Not to mention Ennis himself has stated he hates characters who have powers if not mistaken.
Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Team Wildstorm wins. Team Marvel lacks versatility.So all fights by Wildstorm characters are legitimate but not Wolverine's? Caught you at last. biscuits
Provide on-panel evidence of Midnighter saying he can only come up with an average of 4 winning scenarios per fight.
Me thinks Caleb will be highly effective. 😄
Originally posted by Ambient
Def. but its also an excellent offensive abilities like say he can very well stay in mist form and fight that way or mist and di-mist an opponent inside someone for KO.. He pretty much was able or did this in his pre-kherubim days..It should still work on Wolverine as well, it work on Dane w/ symbiotes but if it does not, its a good way to separate Wolverine's flesh from his adamantium bones.. His pretty much uber for a meta with CIS off..
Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Team Wildstorm wins. Team Marvel lacks versatility.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Me thinks Caleb will be highly effective. 😄
Experience does factor in, especially with characters that make reference of it in their own comic. Its one of the key turning points as to why Zeolat schools Grifter.
Originally posted by Ambient
Team Wildstorm.. There's just no counter to BL's misting...
You also have Nemesis caring flash grenades that can lock into a specific genetic sequence......ouch.
You guys raise some interesting points about the versatility of Wildstorm, but I must reiterate that it won't apply here. To my knowledge, Nemesis has only used the genetic concussion grenades once; even then, the grenades only targeted male Kherans. It would be in violation of the standard equipment clause to allot her those.
Most of Team Wildstorm's "ace in the holes" aren't legal under standard forum rules. We must keep this in mind.