WWH and Skaar vs Surfer

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Let's cut to the chase here. What exactly is your argument?

"Hulk eventually gets strong enough to punch Surfer out of the sky"?

As arguments go, that's a bit weak isn't it?

do you have an argument that doesn't involve denying on-panel history and abilities?

Surfer's gonna tire before Hulk does, Surfer can be dazed by a glancing blow, which is all that Hulk would need for an opening.

if gamma drain was open to him, Surfer would stomp this.

These two no marks are chumps to Surfer, he destroys them.

Originally posted by janus77
didn't you scream PIS at the idea of Hulk ripping matter and anti-matter apart? 😛

Didn't Hulk resist the matter/anti-matter attraction effect itself (an explosive device was rigged to explode by having matter and anti-matter collide via their force of attraction)? I think that was the proper context of the feat (iirc), right?

Originally posted by Nihilist
These two no marks are chumps to Surfer, he destroys them.

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer took Murungu (sp?) to the Astral Plane, I don't know of any character more powerful than Hulk.

He did it to a cosmic beast that was literally kicking his butt physically. He took it to the Astral Plane and easily took it down.

New Hulk has no feats that put him at the level you seem to keep implying him to be.

Originally posted by janus77
Hulk's reach and accuracy are a part of the character, if Thor can hit Surfer (which he shouldn't but he does) so can Hulk. not about to debate being able to hit him, so we can just agree to disagree on that 😐

Thor has flight and a flying FTL hammer that has unnerring accuracy. Hulk has neither.

Originally posted by janus77
as for the whole business of trapping Hulk in the board, again you really are underestimating the kind of strength Hulk has, he'd rip it to shreds. no calming or whatever.

You need to prove that one could use physical force to escape the board. It looked more like a transdimensional trapping, but w/e. My point was that the Surfer has a VAST array of ways to take down the Hulk w/o the use of physical force.

Originally posted by janus77
yes Surfer can affect emotions (he's done so worldwide), but he's never done so against Hulk and I have seen no feats of such manipulation against herald levellers. I doubt it'll work for the same reason Prof. X can't get at Hulk's mind.

He won't affect the Hulk immediately. But as the Hulk floats helplessly in space with little/no reason to be infuriated, he'll slowly succumb to it.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Didn't Hulk resist the matter/anti-matter attraction effect itself (an explosive device was rigged to explode by having matter and anti-matter collide via their force of attraction)? I think that was the proper context of the feat (iirc), right?

he also warped an energy field with his hands, deflected energy blasts with his hands ...

Originally posted by janus77
not really, that's pretty much what would happen. with the given stips.

do you have an argument that doesn't involve denying on-panel history and abilities?

Surfer's gonna tire before Hulk does, Surfer can be dazed by a glancing blow, which is all that Hulk would need for an opening.

if gamma drain was open to him, Surfer would stomp this.

So basically, your argument is, Hulk will what? Leap towards the Surfer (who is traveling at many times light speed many thousand feet above him) and somehow HIT him? :-/

Very weak argument there, buddy.

And what makes you think the Surfer would even get tired in this fight? I doubt that he'd even exert himself enough to get tired.

Originally posted by janus77
not really, that's pretty much what would happen. with the given stips.

do you have an argument that doesn't involve denying on-panel history and abilities?

Surfer's gonna tire before Hulk does, Surfer can be dazed by a glancing blow, which is all that Hulk would need for an opening.

if gamma drain was open to him, Surfer would stomp this.

Uh, not really. Surfer can fly and just cook something up from a distance, and even in close quarters he can just become intangible or microscopic and attack Hulk from inside. There's no reason whatsoever for Surfer to slug it out with Hulk in a non plot driven scenario.

Originally posted by janus77
he physically ripped matter and anti-matter 'spheres' apart, then punched one of them away.

he also warped an energy field with his hands, deflected energy blasts with his hands ...

Someone's going to have to post the scan. I'm pretty sure it was a device rigged to detonate by having matter and anti-matter collide via their attraction, and Hulk simply proved strong enough to overcome the force of the attraction and kept the substances from colliding.

Originally posted by janus77
breathe... now, count backwards from 10 🙂

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
He did it to a cosmic beast that was literally kicking his butt physically. He took it to the Astral Plane and easily took it down.

New Hulk has no feats that put him at the level you seem to keep implying him to be.

Thor has flight and a flying FTL hammer that has unnerring accuracy. Hulk has neither.

You need to prove that one could use physical force to escape the board. It looked more like a transdimensional trapping, but w/e. My point was that the Surfer has a VAST array of ways to take down the Hulk w/o the use of physical force.

He won't affect the Hulk immediately. But as the Hulk floats helplessly in space with little/no reason to be infuriated, he'll slowly succumb to it.

2. the Hammer isn't the point, Thor can smack Surfer without it (he shouldn't be able to, but he does). I don't go about arguing that Thor has no business laying a hand on someone who has nano-second reaction times and moves at billions of multiples of C, I accept that these things happen and that somehow they do fight. as I said, we will disagree on this. on top of that, Hulk does have unerring accuracy and he has leapt and caught Surfer before, as he has other herald types (though much lower ones, like Jack of Hearts).

3. the board has been smashed plenty of times, even in the recent Thanos Imperative, a blast by the Cancerverse Marvell broke it to pieces. as for the transdimensional speculation - any foundation at all in that? Surfer seemed to be carrying Quasar inside the board.

4. you're supposing that Hulk won't be conscious of the fact that he's actually in a battle? how long do you expect them to be floating about? also, the second Surfer blasts Banner... he's dealing with a pissed off Hulk again. 😐

furthermore, you've got things like Hulk's ability to ThunderClap and to grab energy, which give him some purchase and range.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Someone's going to have to post the scan. I'm pretty sure it was a device rigged to detonate by having matter and anti-matter collide via their attraction, and Hulk simply proved strong enough to overcome the force of the attraction and kept the substances from colliding.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Uh, not really. Surfer can fly and just cook something up from a distance, and even in close quarters he can just become intangible or microscopic and attack Hulk from inside. There's no reason whatsoever for Surfer to slug it out with Hulk in a non plot driven scenario.

the "cook something up" needs elaborating, I can't see anything convincing coming forth. Surfer could alter Banner's dna, I suppose, but that's iffy at best (as it's basically a higher level of matter manip).

Originally posted by Nihilist
Surfer already owned Skaar, current WWH needed saving from Skaar by Red She Hulk, hell WWH needed the warbound to help deal with Sentrys energy projection, Surfers EP shits all over Sentrys, in a non plot driven scenario neither can do anything to Surfer, he still has way to many option to win, oh wait i get it its a WWH thread, a automatic Hulks winswith nothing to back it up a usual.

Originally posted by janus77
1. "New Hulk" is more powerful, not a radically different creature, so old Hulk feats apply, it just happens that there are plenty to work with.

New feats or old feats does not put him at the level you seem to be implying him to be.

Recent Surfer seems to be being placed to be considerably more durable/powerful than classic Surfer and even Classic Surfer was shrugging off Savage Hulk's best punches.

Originally posted by janus77
2. the Hammer isn't the point, Thor can smack Surfer without it (he shouldn't be able to, but he does). I don't go about arguing that Thor has no business laying a hand on someone who has nano-second reaction times and moves at billions of multiples of C, I accept that these things happen and that somehow they do fight. as I said, we will disagree on this. on top of that, Hulk does have unerring accuracy and he has leapt and caught Surfer before, as he has other herald types (though much lower ones, like Jack of Hearts).

In a forum fight, Thor WOULD be able to hit the Surfer because he is able attack at range and move at near the speeds the Surfer can. Even then, within the forums, Thor hitting the Surfer with anything other than a hammer throw or ranged energy attack would have to be debatable as Surfer has proven to be the far faster of the two and forum rules state that the character will fight at the best of his abilities (other than CIS).

Hulk, however, will not only NEED to be smart enough to compute his velocity vs that of the Surfer's in order to predict a leap that will intercept him, he will THEN need Surfer to NOT REACT to his leap or alter his heading. :-/

In a forum fight, this will simply not be the case.

Originally posted by janus77
3. the board has been smashed plenty of times, even in the recent Thanos Imperative, a blast by the Cancerverse Marvell broke it to pieces. as for the transdimensional speculation - any foundation at all in that? Surfer seemed to be carrying Quasar inside the board.

My point was the plethora of options available to the Surfer. :-/

Originally posted by janus77
4. you're supposing that Hulk won't be conscious of the fact that he's actually in a battle? how long do you expect them to be floating about? also, the second Surfer blasts Banner... he's dealing with a pissed off Hulk again. 😐

There is no duration to the fights here, it could last for as long as it needs to. Surfer just needs to wait for his "calming powers" to affect the Hulk and turn him back to banner.

Once he's Banner, Surfer uses his PC to let Banner sleep for the win.

Originally posted by janus77
furthermore, you've got things like Hulk's ability to ThunderClap and to grab energy, which give him some purchase and range.

Thunderclap someone that's thousands of feet away moving at far faster than any air wave may be able to travel regardless of the force applied to it?? Or is there some kind of FTL pressure wave out there that I'm not aware of?

Or are you saying he's gonna somehow grab hold onto Surfer's energy blasts, climb up on it and THEN hit Surfer in the jaw or something....?

Wow. That's Loeb level writing/logic right there.... O_o

Originally posted by janus77
lol... 😐

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
New feats or old feats does not put him at the level you seem to be implying him to be.

Recent Surfer seems to be being placed to be considerably more durable/powerful than classic Surfer and even Classic Surfer was shrugging off Savage Hulk's best punches.

yes Current Surfer is a lot more powerful, determined and durable, Annihilation hinted at "Thanos level" power output.

but that doesn't mean he can take on Hulk in what is essentially going to descend into H2H. Hell, you have Savage Hulk outright over powering Thor and it being admitted that it takes Thor + Mjolnir to match up... so I just don't see Surfer being beyond Hulk, when it comes to H2H (obviously I don't see it being a quick fight).

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
In a forum fight, Thor WOULD be able to hit the Surfer because he is able attack at range and move at near the speeds the Surfer can. Even then, within the forums, Thor hitting the Surfer with anything other than a hammer throw or ranged energy attack would have to be debatable as Surfer has proven to be the far faster of the two and forum rules state that the character will fight at the best of his abilities (other than CIS).

Hulk, however, will not only NEED to be smart enough to compute his velocity vs that of the Surfer's in order to predict a leap that will intercept him, he will need Surfer to NOT REACT to his leap. :-/

In a forum fight, this will simply not be the case.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Thunderclap someone that's thousands of feet away moving at far faster than any kind air wave may be able to travel regardless of the force applied to it??

Or are you saying he's gonna somehow grab hold onto Surfer's energy blasts, climb up on it and THEN hit Surfer in the jaw or something....?

Wow. That's Loeb level writing/logic right there.... O_o

Thousands of feet? sure he can (and has) affect such a distance. his energy fields spread across miles, his thunderclaps are powerful enough to deflect dimension destroying blasts and to floor Thor and other Avengers from a distance.

this is all pre-Loeb, not his fault you have preconceptions about what the character can and can't do, that are radically lower than Marvel's depictions 😐.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Shutting up Hulk tards like you easy.

you realise I actually respond to points (whether you agree with me or not) if they're made in the spirit of debate.

your infantile angry outbursts just end up looking ... well, infantile really 😐.

I agree;

Surfer is billions of times faster than Mjolnir. It shouldn't catch him. 😛

Originally posted by janus77
lol, how old are you?

you realise I actually respond to points (whether you agree with me or not) if they're made in the spirit of debate.

your infantile angry outbursts just end up looking ... well, infantile really 😐.