Sersi Vs Dr Manhatten Vs Silver Surfer

Originally posted by h1a8
I define 'fight' as one on one ready set fight. Actually I knew SS has done some of the things. That is why I was slick and said "...in a fight."

SS can't do the astral plane thing in a fight due to him leaving his body exposed or him leaving the battlefield rule. From that scan that wasn't what I define to be a fight (as in one on one ready set fight).

Also the other poster implied that SS can just send someone into the future with a mere gesture (his statement implied it). He didn't claim how. He purposely stated it in such a way as to be misleading. I knew this and thus called him on it.

There were other claims not yet attempted to be proven though.

I concede that he can do such things to certain beings but not how the OP implied how he would do them.

Now whether or not it would constitute leaving the battlefield is another matter entirely and certainly up for debate, my point was just that 753 showed that Surfer CAN use the tactic in combat.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Except manhattan would know if that happened or he tried to do it. Any isn't tim travel not allowed in forum fight?

3 Things:
1) DM's visions can only allow him to see from the point on when he got his powers, he cannot see anything before that so he doesn't get to know the Surfer traveling back to before he gets his power. All he'll see is the Surfer disappearing.
2) And Ozy managed to block his awareness. I don't see how Surfer won't be able to.
3) And even if he DID know, how the hell is he even stopping the Surfer??

Also, you never addressed my response to your previous post's inane leap of logic.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Pretty much H1.Like I've said all along I think surfer would beat manhattan in a fight.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He's not leaving his body exposed because he brings his opponent with him, so there's not really anyone to attack it unless an opponent has some kind of character specific ability to account for it. And how he pulled it off was far more relevant in regards to whether or not it's a valid tactic for him in standard combat because he actually did it when he was already losing a fight.

Now whether or not it would constitute leaving the battlefield is another matter entirely and certainly up for debate, my point was just that 753 showed that Surfer CAN use the tactic in combat.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
3 Things:
1) DM's visions can only allow him to see from the point on when he got his powers, he cannot see anything before that so he doesn't get to know the Surfer traveling back to before he gets his power. All he'll see is the Surfer disappearing.
2) And Ozy managed to block his awareness. I don't see how Surfer won't be able to.
3) And even if he DID know, how the hell is he even stopping the Surfer??

Also, you never addressed my response to your previous post's inane leap of logic.

1. Leaving the battlefield is not allowed.
2. SS may not know about his awareness or even how to block it.
3. By teleporting SS to various points and assaulting him with large powerful clones of himself. SS won't even be able to move a considerable distance if Dr. M don't want him to.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
And why would manhattan be any different?

Because

Spoiler:
they're not the same character

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't believe SS can bring his opponent with him. I believe it is more like he goes there and attacks their mind/soul which is already there. My point is that he can't do it in a fight (and win) because it takes time to do it (as shown). He would leave himself open for attack if he did that. And this is even assuming that I accept the one time feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Leaving the battlefield is not allowed.
2. SS may not know about his awareness or even how to block it.
3. By teleporting SS to various points and assaulting him with large powerful clones of himself. SS won't even be able to move a considerable distance if Dr. M don't want him to.

1. My idea of BFR is really sending some1 somewhere he can't get back to. But whatever. My point was is that the Surfer can do things DM cannot sense.
2. Surfer has been shown to be able to scan abilities of enemies as well as weaknesses. It's what he does. If Ozy figured it out, so can the Surfer.
3. You've never proven that each copy posseses the same level of power as the original. Quit trying to manufacture unproven abilities.

Forum rules on BFR.

Leaving the field
Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power in a reasonable amount of time, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Forum rules on BFR.

Leaving the field
Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power in a reasonable amount of time, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.

Yeah, I read the rules, I just don't agree with it. I mean, how do you even decide what "leave the field is". I mean, Nightcrawler's power is literally leaving our dimension, entering another dimension and exiting back into ours. Zoom is out is permanently out of shift with our time. Martian Manhunter's power is phasing out of our reality. How is that NOT BFR (based on the rules)?

There should be a rule on what constitutes self-bfr like time requirement.

It's a very subjective rule. But whatever, not really interested in debating that point.

Which is beside the real point anyway as there are far more ways the Surfer can beat Dr. M in a fight.

Its to stop people like Supes from sundipping then destorying his foes or Kang going back in time without prep. And no that little technical BFR that NC does doesnt count.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
1. My idea of BFR is really sending some1 somewhere he can't get back to. But whatever. My point was is that the Surfer can do things DM cannot sense.
2. Surfer has been shown to be able to scan abilities of enemies as well as weaknesses. It's what he does. If Ozy figured it out, so can the Surfer.
3. You've never proven that each copy posseses the same level of power as the original. Quit trying to manufacture unproven abilities.

1. Dr. M can see the future. Thus he can sense it.
2. I know but that doesn't give him omnipotent ability to do it to all beings, neither does his cosmic power give him the ability to create all types of energy (even those only found in other dimensions). For example, Thanos weakness was Drax. Yet Surfer can't create the type of energy protruding from Drax to beat Thanos. Otherwise, writers would have had him do that.
3. Yes I have. They all have the same makeup. Same makeup means same power. Dr. M can create himself from nothing. That means he knows every molecule, every fiber, every photon, etc. of his entire being. He simply duplicates it over and over.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Its to stop people like Supes from sundipping then destorying his foes or Kang going back in time without prep. And no that little technical BFR that NC does doesnt count.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
But whatever, not really interested in debating that point.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Yeah, I read the rules, I just don't agree with it. I mean, how do you even decide what "leave the field is". I mean, Nightcrawler's power is literally leaving our dimension, entering another dimension and exiting back into ours. Zoom is out is permanently out of shift with our time. Martian Manhunter's power is phasing out of our reality. How is that NOT BFR (based on the rules)?

There should be a rule on what constitutes self-bfr like time requirement.

It's a very subjective rule. But whatever, not really interested in debating that point.

Which is beside the real point anyway as there are far more ways the Surfer can beat Dr. M in a fight.

SS going to the astral plane to fight is clearly leaving the battlefield. There is a difference between a heap of sand and a small clump of sand.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Dr. M can see the future. Thus he can sense it.
2. I know but that doesn't give him omnipotent ability to do it to all beings, neither does his cosmic power give him the ability to create all types of energy (even those only found in other dimensions). For example, Thanos weakness was Drax. Yet Surfer can't create the type of energy protruding from Drax to beat Thanos. Otherwise, writers would have had him do that.
3. Yes I have. They all have the same makeup. Same makeup means same power. Dr. M can create himself from nothing. That means he knows every molecule, every fiber, every photon, etc. of his entire being. He simply duplicates it over and over.

1. Actually, IIRC, he can only "see the future" by experiencing from all his "selves" from across time. What he doesn't experience (or fail to notice), he doesn't "sense".
2. Thanos' weakness was something Oblivion himself provided Drax. Also, there was no indication that this was simply an "energy weakness" to Thanos. For all we know, the green energy on him was a unique amp that comes out only when he is about to face Thanos or some connection to Oblivion (who created him). Drawing parallels here is another leap of logic (w/c you are pretty know for).

However, a simple glance to Gladiator and an immediate knowledge of his weakness kinda shows how easily the Surfer can do this to most opponents. The fact that Manhattan is an energy being kinda points to this being easier that harder for the Surfer to do.

And no, even if the Surfer could manufacture the energy (assuming it was just that) the writers would never let him do that. :-/

3. Classic h1 leap of logic right there. You have no proof that any copy is capable of anything you claim. Provide scans if you do, stop making assumptions or just stop this BS. Also, he didn't create himself from nothing. He reconstituted himself after he got dispersed. Again, stop making stuff up.

Originally posted by h1a8
Well it makes sense to allow someone to do it if it is one of their main powers (like Super strength to Superman). Nightcrawler just can't teleport to another place and stay there. But he can temporarily use another dimension to teleport to a different place on the same battlefield. MM doesn't quite phase out of our reality. Otherwise, he would have never got burned from fire while in a phased state. Being out of shift with time, as far as the rate in which it passes, is not the same as being in another time. Even if it is then according to Relativity, time is different in all frames of reference (depending on one's relative speed to another). That means the moment a character moves his/hers time is different than the other character.

Like I said, the rule is quite subjective. But I am not interested to argue it because it isn't really the only way Surfer wins this.

Originally posted by h1a8
SS going to the astral plane to fight is clearly leaving the battlefield. There is a difference between a heap of sand and a small clump of sand.

LOL. No it's not. It simply puts him into a different state/form. He's still in the same battlefield.

A little desperate, aren't we?

Just give up h1 they aren't going to accept that this argument has no point because Dr. Manhattan doesn't have enough on panel feats. John has never been challenged and the biggest matter manip he did was the big clock thing on Mars which seemed to take utterly no effort and the thing was pretty big and he just sat there and did it with a thought. This argument has been stuck since it was first brought up that Dr. M doesnt have enough details on his capabilities to make this competition ever come to a conclusion. Most of his limitations were based on the lies of Ozzymandius.

Just let the thread die and let people think what they want to think. I don't know who would win and it's quite possible that no one would and it would come to a draw. Not enough data to take a good guess one way or another.

Thats the thing about Dr. Manhattan, he lacks feats, I guess H1s theory is that 1-2 feats and his speculations >>>>> A history of feats.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
3 Things:
1) DM's visions can only allow him to see from the point on when he got his powers, he cannot see anything before that so he doesn't get to know the Surfer traveling back to before he gets his power. All he'll see is the Surfer disappearing.
2) And Ozy managed to block his awareness. I don't see how Surfer won't be able to.
3) And even if he DID know, how the hell is he even stopping the Surfer??

Also, you never addressed my response to your previous post's inane leap of logic.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
1. Actually, IIRC, he can only "see the future" by experiencing from all his "selves" from across time. What he doesn't experience (or fail to notice), he doesn't "sense".
2. Thanos' weakness was something Oblivion himself provided Drax. Also, there was no indication that this was simply an "energy weakness" to Thanos. For all we know, the green energy on him was a unique amp that comes out only when he is about to face Thanos or some connection to Oblivion (who created him). Drawing parallels here is another leap of logic (w/c you are pretty know for).

However, a simple glance to Gladiator and an immediate knowledge of his weakness kinda shows how easily the Surfer can do this to most opponents. The fact that Manhattan is an energy being kinda points to this being easier that harder for the Surfer to do.

And no, even if the Surfer could manufacture the energy (assuming it was just that) the writers would never let him do that. :-/

3. Classic h1 leap of logic right there. You have no proof that any copy is capable of anything you claim. Provide scans if you do, stop making assumptions or just stop this BS. Also, he didn't create himself from nothing. He reconstituted himself after he got dispersed. Again, stop making stuff up.