Originally posted by D_Dude1210
1. Actually, IIRC, he can only "see the future" by experiencing from all his "selves" from across time. What he doesn't experience (or fail to notice), he doesn't "sense".
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
1. Actually, IIRC, he can only "see the future" by experiencing from all his "selves" from across time. What he doesn't experience (or fail to notice), he doesn't "sense".
2. Thanos' weakness was something Oblivion himself provided Drax. Also, there was no indication that this was simply an "energy weakness" to Thanos. For all we know, the green energy on him was a unique amp that comes out only when he is about to face Thanos or some connection to Oblivion (who created him). Drawing parallels here is another leap of logic (w/c you are pretty know for).However, a simple glance to Gladiator and an immediate knowledge of his weakness kinda shows how easily the Surfer can do this to most opponents. The fact that Manhattan is an energy being kinda points to this being easier that harder for the Surfer to do.
And no, even if the Surfer could manufacture the energy (assuming it was just that) the writers would never let him do that. :-/
3. Classic h1 leap of logic right there. You have no proof that any copy is capable of anything you claim. Provide scans if you do, stop making assumptions or just stop this BS. Also, he didn't create himself from nothing. He reconstituted himself after he got dispersed. Again, stop making stuff up.
2. It's still energy. Who cares where it came from? My point is that SS hasn't been proven to be able to make all forms of energy. Actually, we don't know if it was a simple glance or a small moment or several moments for SS to discern Glad's weakness. SS talking to Glads about it doesn't tell us the time he took to do it prior to the talking.
3. No. Dr. M is an energy manipulator and absorber. He gathered ambient energy to recreate himself, not the exact same energy that was dispersed.
It's like you asking me to prove that Superman can lift a Mercedes Benz when he was shown to lift pyramids and move planets at great speeds. Lifting pyramids proves he can lift a Mercedes. The same as Dr. M using outside energy to create himself perfectly can use the same energy to create another perfect copy of himself.
Originally posted by Black bolt z
1:Actually he does he his whole life including his non power life.
2:Because ozzy spent millions to figure out how. Surfer won't know how to do it.
3:He probably won't.But manhattan would be aware of his own past and could do something to stop it.Or try and fail.
Sigh. I've already REPEATEDLY said I'm not interested in debating the "Surfer goes back in time to prevent DM from getting his powers" argument. Based on BFR rules, this might not be allowed.
Which is funny cause I noticed that everyone who argued for DM suddenly jumped on this segue instead of pursuing what everyone kept arguing all along: The Astral Plane attack. This is perhaps due to the Pro-DM side understanding that DM has zero defenses against this attack and would easily lose if this was done to him.
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Kronos created drax...not oblivion
Yeah it was early in the morning and my mind wasn't working well. My mistake.
PS. Surfer being unable to figure something out (when it apparently is within his powerset to do so) because Ozzy "spent millions to figure out how" is just plain dumb. Musta been early in the morning when you posted that, too.
Originally posted by h1a8
2. It's still energy. Who cares where it came from? My point is that SS hasn't been proven to be able to make all forms of energy. Actually, we don't know if it was a simple glance or a small moment or several moments for SS to discern Glad's weakness. SS talking to Glads about it doesn't tell us the time he took to do it prior to the talking.3. No. Dr. M is an energy manipulator and absorber. He gathered ambient energy to recreate himself, not the exact same energy that was dispersed.
1. Conceding your lack of knowledge here, aren't we?
2. LOL. Yet more h1 "logic". Surfer has been shown to sense SPECIFIC energy weaknesses and has been shown to posses the ability to duplicate it. That's all that is really important here. Heck, Ozzy was able to figure out how to create the energy needed by using a bit of money and some research.
Also,what does the amount of time it took for the Surfer to sense Glad's weakness have to do with anything?
Also, I've ALREADY repeatedly conceded the possible "BFR rules" that might not even allow time travelling so I'm going back to the Astral Plane scenario.
3. You have scans to prove that this was the exact thing that happened, right?
Originally posted by h1a8
It's like you asking me to prove that Superman can lift a Mercedes Benz when he was shown to lift pyramids and move planets at great speeds. Lifting pyramids proves he can lift a Mercedes. The same as Dr. M using outside energy to create himself perfectly can use the same energy to create another perfect copy of himself.
No, it's more like you saying that since Wolverine can grow back an arm, he can possibly grow SEVERAL arms. :-/ While it is, of course, possible, you need to SHOW scans that prove each copy is a perfect duplicate of the original.
Besied, point is moot. If you cannot beat the Astral projection attack, Dr M loses here.
Originally posted by Uriel005
damn people this thread is going nowhere. NOT ENOUGH FEATS. No one can say how Manhattan would perform against Herald level characters... His list of weaknesses to attacks stands at absolutely zero.I hope that on that point at least we can all agree.
He doesn't have to have to "a weakness" to lose in a fight. SS doesn't have a weakness (cept mebbe the back of Thanos' pimphand) and still could lose fights to stronger opponents.
SS's top feats >>> DMs top feats. I HOPE that on that point we can all agree.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
He doesn't have to have to "a weakness" to lose in a fight. SS doesn't have a weakness (cept mebbe the back of Thanos' pimphand) and still could lose fights to stronger opponents.SS's top feats >>> DMs top feats. I HOPE that on that point we can all agree.
Yeah but look how long the surfer has been going... I mean its just a matter of available materials and your comparing a character with no enemies beyond intelligent to someone who fights cosmic entities on a regular basis. That's why I'm saying it's a bad thread you don't know how Manhattan would respond there is no baseline to how he would do against anyone. You say his powers are limited... Yes they are simply because there has never been any call to use them. It's like a man might be a weak force in the world but in a room full of mice he might as well be god.
You can't say surfer would win or Manhattan would win just because Manhattan is all about implied powers and there is nothing concrete besides Teleport, Telepathy, Cloning, Time/Space awareness, and Matter Manipulation all of which you may come up with 30 or so panels in the entire comic that he uses them. This entire thing is set up to be a surfer wanking and you know it. As soon as you started debating against Manhattan comparing feats to Surfer it lost all meaning. You can't compare something that doesn't exist.
I could say that the limits of Manhattans Matter Manip are never explored and even if he was worried about the nukes maybe it could be because he wouldn't be able to control his powers at that level and might instead turn the whole planet to dust. Point is he is an unexplored character with almost 0 background going up against someone who regularly goes toe to toe with cosmic forces and has decades of feats to call upon. So yeah like I said no winner can be declared with available data.
Originally posted by Uriel005
Yeah but look how long the surfer has been going... I mean its just a matter of available materials and your comparing a character with no enemies beyond intelligent to someone who fights cosmic entities on a regular basis. That's why I'm saying it's a bad thread you don't know how Manhattan would respond there is no baseline to how he would do against anyone. You say his powers are limited... Yes they are simply because there has never been any call to use them. It's like a man might be a weak force in the world but in a room full of mice he might as well be god.
So, what's your point? Other than a rant about how little DM's feats are, there really is no relevance to this whole paragraph with regards to this debate.
It's not a bad thread, DM has feats, few as they are, use them as a basis of what he is capable of doing. Don't complain that the Surfer has better ones. :-/
Originally posted by Uriel005
You can't say surfer would win or Manhattan would win just because Manhattan is all about implied powers and there is nothing concrete besides Teleport, Telepathy, Cloning, Time/Space awareness, and Matter Manipulation all of which you may come up with 30 or so panels in the entire comic that he uses them. This entire thing is set up to be a surfer wanking and you know it. As soon as you started debating against Manhattan comparing feats to Surfer it lost all meaning. You can't compare something that doesn't exist.
Yes, we can say that the Surfer would win. He has the on-panel feats dwarfing that of what DM has done on-panel. What's so hard to grasp about that? It seems that you are suffering from a cognitive bias to simply place DM as having no limitations and are unwilling to let it go even tho you have ZERO evidence to back it up.
Originally posted by Uriel005
I could say that the limits of Manhattans Matter Manip are never explored and even if he was worried about the nukes maybe it could be because he wouldn't be able to control his powers at that level and might instead turn the whole planet to dust. Point is he is an unexplored character with almost 0 background going up against someone who regularly goes toe to toe with cosmic forces and has decades of feats to call upon. So yeah like I said no winner can be declared with available data.
QUIT IT with the no-limits fallacy please.
Just because he's never tried to do anything that would tax his abilities, doesn't mean that he has no limits. It's like saying the 10 year old bully in the playground has no limits to his strength because he's never fought anyone that was hard for him to beat. :-/
Also, the statement:
Originally posted by Uriel005
maybe it could be because he wouldn't be able to control his powers at that level and might instead turn the whole planet to dust
Is complete FAIL conjecture.
He had to abandon everything he loved and become the villain that everyone despises (other than those who know the truth) because he couldn't change the fact that nuclear war might destroy everything he loved.
Think about that for a second.
It's a solid, hard, obvious LIMIT to his abilities.
Whereas the Surfer could easily stop the entire world's armies, nuke or no if he simply wanted to.
the nuclear war was never guaranteed to happen. It was based on a lie by ozzy lol. How many times do I have to say it. He saw that his vision was blocked, which, to his knowledge could only be done through nuclear war, which made him imply the he was not good enough to stop the nuclear war. Ozzy said that John couldn't be everywhere to stop the nukes because he wasn't going to take the bet that he could for even a 1 percent chance of him failing. So yeah theres a limitation based on a lie. Also the no limits fallacy I'm not saying he doesn't have them just that to say what was on panel was his limit is pure bull$hit on your part considering the people in the comic say that he is capable of so much more than what the readers see. So going by what the other characters say about him I have to assume that what is seen is the tip of the iceburg.
Again thread is moot.
Claiming the nuclear war was never guaranteed to happen is completely ignoring the storyline and everything that gave it meaning. Ozzie did not cause the escalation either and manhatan simply did not know what would happen, but the remainder of the characters who knew his powers did not believe he could stop it either. Even at the end of the comic, manhatan concedes that ozzie's was the only way to save the world. If he could just prevent the war by himself, it would not matter whether or not ozzie's plan succeeded, it would be safe to exposes the plot.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210No. I didn't understand what you said so I left it alone. I'm convinced that Dr. M would see everything SS would do to him with his future seeing.
1. Conceding your lack of knowledge here, aren't we?
Colossus being able to lift more than 50tons doesn't mean he can lift any amount of weight. The same goes for Surfer making different kinds of energy. Ozy could only create that fictional form of energy only because it existed in that universe, thus giving the possibility that Surfer may not be able to make it. With that said, I can almost guarantee that Reed can make forms of energy that SS can't make. Second, the point is moot since the weakness of a character as far as destroying them has nothing to do with limiting one of their powers. Surfer has only been shown to find a destroying weakness in Gladiator (no one else) and he hasn't been shown to find a weakness in stopping Glads from using one of his powers.
2. LOL. Yet more h1 "logic". Surfer has been shown to sense SPECIFIC energy weaknesses and has been shown to posses the ability to duplicate it. That's all that is really important here. Heck, Ozzy was able to figure out how to create the energy needed by using a bit of money and some research.
Everything. If it took him some minutes or more then it won't be feasible in battle.
Also,what does the amount of time it took for the Surfer to sense Glad's weakness have to do with anything?
That again may be against the rules. Leaving to go to the Astral Plane is self bfr. The battlefield is not in the Astral Plane. Also, it is a one time feat for SS so it may or may not be valid to use here.
Also, I've ALREADY repeatedly conceded the possible "BFR rules" that might not even allow time travelling so I'm going back to the Astral Plane scenario.
No. But the negation of it would lead to absurdity.
3. You have scans to prove that this was the exact thing that happened, right?
Growing back arms is not the same as directly creating and making things. Wolverine don't know how he is growing his arm back. He doesn't directly convert energy to matter and put every molecule and atom back in the proper place.
No, it's more like you saying that since Wolverine can grow back an arm, he can possibly grow SEVERAL arms. :-/ While it is, of course, possible, you need to SHOW scans that prove each copy is a perfect duplicate of the original.
SS can't win via Astral projection attack if ALL the following can't beat defeated (not 1 or some).
Besied, point is moot. If you cannot beat the Astral projection attack, Dr M loses here.
1. Leaving the battlefield to go to the Astral plane is self bfr.
2. Dr. M destroying SS the moment he stops to concentrate on going to the Astral plane.
3. One time obscure feats can't be used.
Originally posted by h1a8Actually, he's gone to the astral plane a lot. He fought mephisto there too. He would not be self-BFRing because it would only take an instant and regardless of how long it took, his astral form would remain engaged in battle just the same. I doubt DM would manage to dstroy SS's body while his mind is under a, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous attack. SS is far more durable than anything DM ever encountered too and hecould just leave a forcefield surrounding him before taking to the astral plane.
1. Leaving the battlefield to go to the Astral plane is self bfr.
2. Dr. M destroying SS the moment he stops to concentrate on going to the Astral plane.
3. One time obscure feats can't be used. [/B]
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Just out of curiosity what if Dr. M beats SS there? I mean your making it seem like an auto win.
1. Conceding your lack of knowledge here, aren't we?2. LOL. Yet more h1 "logic". Surfer has been shown to sense SPECIFIC energy weaknesses and has been shown to posses the ability to duplicate it. That's all that is really important here. Heck, Ozzy was able to figure out how to create the energy needed by using a bit of money and some research.
Also,what does the amount of time it took for the Surfer to sense Glad's weakness have to do with anything?
Also, I've ALREADY repeatedly conceded the possible "BFR rules" that might not even allow time travelling so I'm going back to the Astral Plane scenario.
3. You have scans to prove that this was the exact thing that happened, right?
No, it's more like you saying that since Wolverine can grow back an arm, he can possibly grow SEVERAL arms. :-/ While it is, of course, possible, you need to SHOW scans that prove each copy is a perfect duplicate of the original.
Besied, point is moot. If you cannot beat the Astral projection attack, Dr M loses here.
Originally posted by janus77False.Manhattan is easily herald level. Even if he is low herald he could give surfer a challenge.Surfer would win.But people seem to be underrating manhattan and thinking that the astral plain is an auto-win.
Manhatten has done NOTHING that would indicate he could hurt Surfer, nevermind come close to challenging him.as it stands, you might as well be making up your own comic character to fight Surfer, 'cos you're going to be arguing out of your arse anyway 😐
Originally posted by Black bolt z
False.Manhattan is easily herald level. Even if he is low herald he could give surfer a challenge.Surfer would win.But people seem to be underrating manhattan and thinking that the astral plain is an auto-win.
growing yay big and vapourising humans a few at a time?
making copies of himself? unless they are independent conscious entities, all Surfer need do is omni-blast them or just disperse their atoms.
see into his own future and past? probably makes Surfer's task easier, as Manhatten would instantly assume the BRB foetal position 🙂
manipulate matter? Surfer can do thst planet-wide (at the least) without effort (Planet Sakaar, for instance).
...
Originally posted by h1a8
2. It's still energy. Who cares where it came from? My point is that SS hasn't been proven to be able to make all forms of energy. Actually, we don't know if it was a simple glance or a small moment or several moments for SS to discern Glad's weakness. SS talking to Glads about it doesn't tell us the time he took to do it prior to the talking.
Implied power set without feats to back it up = useless in debates = auto loss...
Originally posted by h1a8
No. I didn't understand what you said so I left it alone. I'm convinced that Dr. M would see everything SS would do to him with his future seeing.
No, he doesn't read up more on how DM's future seeing works before pulling stuff out of your @$$ pls.
Originally posted by h1a8
Colossus being able to lift more than 50tons doesn't mean he can lift any amount of weight. The same goes for Surfer making different kinds of energy. Ozy could only create that fictional form of energy only because it existed in that universe, thus giving the possibility that Surfer may not be able to make it. With that said, I can almost guarantee that Reed can make forms of energy that SS can't make. Second, the point is moot since the weakness of a character as far as destroying them has nothing to do with limiting one of their powers. Surfer has only been shown to find a destroying weakness in Gladiator (no one else) and he hasn't been shown to find a weakness in stopping Glads from using one of his powers.
LOL at you stating that Ozzy could duplicate thru money and Watchmen Universe science energies that the Surfer cannot. Your fail logic knows no end.
Originally posted by h1a8
Everything. If it took him some minutes or more then it won't be feasible in battle.
You're saying that Dr. M can bullrush and beat the Surfer within a few minutes??? LOL. Got proof this would happen?
Originally posted by h1a8
That again may be against the rules. Leaving to go to the Astral Plane is self bfr. The battlefield is not in the Astral Plane. Also, it is a one time feat for SS so it may or may not be valid to use here.
No, it's not. It's a different state of being. His BODY is still in the physical plane, only his anima/soul moves to the Astral Plane. Technically, this means that he is still in the battlefield. Stop being so desperate. It's pathetic.
Originally posted by h1a8
No. But the negation of it would lead to absurdity.
No it's not. Reforming after he got dispersed is as good an explanation as any. Thing is, you have no proof that he manages to recreate himself from nothing and THEN you are extrapolating/pulling out abilities from your A$$ based on abilities you can't even prove.
Classic H1 fail logic.
Originally posted by h1a8
Growing back arms is not the same as directly creating and making things. Wolverine don't know how he is growing his arm back.
A lot of characters can grow new body parts and not know how they're doing it. The fact of the matter is, unless they've PROVEN ON-PANEL that they can do something, one shouldn't extrapolate new abilities based on a FAIL assumption on FAIL knowledge of how his powers work exactly.
ESPECIALLY, when you don't even know how DM's powers work yourself.
Originally posted by h1a8
He doesn't directly convert energy to matter and put every molecule and atom back in the proper place.
If I have the exact recipe or code for making something and the ingredients in which to make it then I can make as many perfect copies as I want. This is deductive reasoning. If the premises are true then the conclusion is necessarily true.
No. You can only make up to how much your stamina allow, how much time you had and how much ingredients were available.
No-limit fallacy FAIL.
Originally posted by h1a8
SS can't win via Astral projection attack if ALL the following can't beat defeated (not 1 or some).1. Leaving the battlefield to go to the Astral plane is self bfr.
2. Dr. M destroying SS the moment he stops to concentrate on going to the Astral plane.
3. One time obscure feats can't be used.
1. Again, is NOT a self-BFR scenario as per the rules.
2. Dr. M has never destroyed anything with the Surfer's durability or performed any attacks that has done damage beyond what the Surfer has been EASILY able to tank in the past.
3. Surfer has been to the Asrtal Plane more than once and has shown his abilities there more than once.