Originally posted by D_Dude1210This post replies to both of your posts.
The rules are the rules as they are WRITTEN. If you do not like it, don't rules lawyer. I win here. I have fact, you have opinion. Unless you can provide concrete evidence that this rule of yours exist, you have nothing here. Utterly nothing except pathetic denial.Seriously, you can't cite rules that no longer exist and expect it to carry in a debate. You MIGHT try and convince me thru logic and your DEEP understanding of the Surfer's history that it is indeed PIS. But you don't read Surfer comics. So you have none of that.
Without the word of the rules specifying anything as a basis of your argument, all you have is your opinion on its interpretation.
If you had any credibility, you might be able to convince me of your interpretation. Sadly, you have none of that, too.
All you have now are: Assumptions. Biased, misleading interpretations. Denial. And this is the story of your life.
You seriously already lost here. You need to concede this point.
What does "a moment's notice" have anything to do with anything here.??
Of course he can, he's done it on-panel. The point of my argument is that it's NOT PIS for the Surfer to affect the Astral Plane as he's done it multiple times in his history as shown by his multiple Astral/Soul feats.
That and the fact that you can't cite any rules to support you PIS argument.
Yes it does. Clearly you didn't even look at the scan. Look at the creature's hand as the Surfer is about to attack it.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/InThyName2005.jpg
This is the problem with you. You don't scrutinize the evidence THEN post trash assumptions borne of utter ignorance to mislead ppl then shift the burden of proof to the other party just so that you are given more room to post more trash.
I guess not having to worry about having any credibility whatsoever is a luxury you can afford.
Translation: "WAH!WAH!WAH! I can't refute your logic so I'll just run back to pure denial again!! Cuz that's the kind of guy I am!!"
This is the "COMIC VS" forum, noob. Sadly, you don't really know that a LOT of the ppl here actually DO base their arguments off the comic. Funny thing is, since you never read the comic, you can't tell the difference.
Unfortunately, I'll have to concede the fact that I based my arguments off YOUR accounts of the feats (cuz, well, like I said, even I get mislead by you at times, you're pretty good at misleading ppl after all.). Admittedly, I am guilty of being gullible enough to believe your accounts.
But seeing now as you're basing your argumentations off the movie, I must now facepalm, shake my head and point you to the direction of the nearest comic store.
Buy the comic, read the comic, understand the comic, scan some pages THEN come back here and debate. I tire of debating with the ignorant.
The fact that the best way to argue with a double standard debater is to throw back his own double standard logical arguments to his face so that he realizes his logical contradictions to show him his debating faults and force him to take a more unbiased stance?
Heck, go down a few sentences, you'll see another one of your double standards in play, yet again.
I think I explained it solidly enough. Do I need to spell it out more?
I responded to your argument. Sadly, you don't really get it.
I'm not doing it because I have a specific stance and want it to prove it using your logic. My goal here is to point out YOUR logical flaws (as I find it quite entertaining to do so) and how it applies to the opposite side given similar standards just to prove to you that you're a hypocrite. 🙂
You cannot argue ability of two completely different powers.
Let me use YOU type of logic here:
-Wolverine has regeneration.
-Wolverine has adamantium claws.
-Both are within Wolverine's history as main powers.Thus it can be argued that Wolverine can regenerate his adamantium claws.
Without proof, you cannot VOMIT assumptions like this.
You fail. Try again.
KO is incapacitation or being unable to fight. Stop making stuff up. GEEZ!
Cite the rule where trapping BFR requires 3 mins. Otherwise, I'll call this another one of your misleading lies.
Incapacitation by trapping has also been considered an possible and acceptable victory condition in these forums. Such as Thanos' force block.
You've never proven that Dr M can react at light speeds.
Surfer travels at far faster than light.
My GOD do you know how idiotic and desperate you sound here? We don't know how Dr M's matter manipulation works so we don't know if it takes speed to fix a TV or simply a level of mental awareness/multitasking.
The TV did NOT explode at light speed thus you cannot make the inference that it was even CLOSE to FTL. COMPLEXITY of performed actions has nothing to do with reaction speeds.
Otherwise, Surfer would have the reaction speed so far above FTL that it's not even funny.
FYI, you've never proven that the TV feat was anything close to FTL as it didn't explode anywhere near light speed.
FYI-2, Surfer's bullrush travels at many many many times light speed.
You use ONE inconclusive feat to indicate FTL reflexes on Dr M using EXTREMELY FLEXIBLE standards of interpretation for the feat yet refuse to recognize Surfer's Astral feats (even though the Surfer has multiple Soul/Mind/Astral feats and his history of versatility within the physical and nonphysical has been well documented) by using an EXTREMELY RIGID interpretation of multiple feats to segregate them as completely unrelated to each other.
Pure, unadulterated hypocrisy.
You see how you are a double standards debater now?
Also, you don't even read the Surfer (I'm beginning to doubt that you even read comics at all). How the hell can you even have the audacity to state what his "average historical showings are".
Just admit that you're a double standards debater so we can move on.
1. It's all about the spirit of the comic fight. It makes no sense to have a character leaving the battlefield when they are engaged in a fight. Characters are to fight to death, ko, bfr, or incapacitation. It is desperate for you to even use feats that are PIS and against the rules. Also I don't see how the scan is showing the battlefield when Surfer attacks the creature. Isn't everything in the scan in the Astral field? If not, prove it. Don't bother since, whether it is or isn't wouldn't prove that SS isn't in another dimension.
2. You continue to use bad analogies. The best debaters here don't do this. Goober, Galan, etc. Wolverine healing his adamantium is totally unrelated since it is not part of his body. It's a foreign substance in him. My argument is very strong. For it is at least very believable that Dr. M can teleport molecules or at least large chunks of matter. A desperate person asks for proof even though it is very believable that something can happen. Also either wolverine brain was still intact when he was burned to a crisp or cut to pieces or it was PIS. Pick one. The suspension of disbelief doesn't go against the logically impossible, it goes against the factually impossible. It is logically impossible for anything to be koed by being hit and not by being separated into many pieces.
3. I used several things to show Dr. M with FTL reflexes. You are only rebutting one of them. Doesn't matter if the tv exploded at the speed of light or not. It could have been broken for years for all we care. It was the fact of how fast Dr. M repaired it that made the difference.
4. Surfer is far faster than light AFTER spending time to accelerate to that speed. He isn't that fast instantly. Dr. M would have sufficient time to make an action well before he even gets to light speed. And even if he doesn't then surfer can do nothing, as Dr. M would just regenerate or just multiply many fold.
5. Surfer has an entire comic career as to show what is rare and what isn't. PIS goes out the window when someone only had one to a few appearances. Plus I showed at least 3 things of how Dr. M got FTL reflexes. 3 things in one appearance is totally valid.
6. Why doesn't it give Dr. M the same level of control. It is far easier to teleport something than it is to transmute something. In transmutation I have to carefully put subatomic particles in the correct order by moving them accurately withing the nearest .001 of an angstrom. Teleportation requires just teleporting it. Doesn't matter how accurate the teleport is. Can be within the nearest 1 m or 10m for all we care. The same molecule Dr. M is moving with absolute precision can just be teleported without much precision.
7. Cowardice is a product of Pride. Otherwise, what would one be afraid of in admitting they are wrong. Ignorance is false since I said "when they know they are".
8. Your copy and paste of logical fallacies text doesn't apply to fictional things. These characters never existed and thus the truth only lies in the writer's mind.
In summary SS can't do anything to Dr. M to win.
Dr. M can possibly beat SS though.
Thus
Originally posted by h1a8
1.It's all about the spirit of the comic fight. It makes no sense to have a character leaving the battlefield when they are engaged in a fight. Characters are to fight to death, ko, bfr, or incapacitation. It is desperate for you to even use feats that are PIS and against the rules. Also I don't see how the scan is showing the battlefield when Surfer attacks the creature. Isn't everything in the scan in the Astral field? If not, prove it.
Let's break this down:
-It makes sense as the Surfer performed said feat IN AN ACTUAL FIGHT.
-Look at the scan again. The Surfer's physical body is CLEARLY shown as to occupy the SAME LOCATION as the Astral Form. Occupying the same location = occupying the same battlefield. Thus not BFR. MY logic is correct, you cannot prove me wrong and thus you simply deny it.
-I proved (via scans) that this isn't BFR.
-I proved (via scans of Surfer's history) that this isn't PIS.
-I proved (via the rules) that your definition/interpretation of PIS is incorrect.
-Also, nice try with:
Originally posted by h1a8
Don't bother since, whether it is or isn't wouldn't prove that SS isn't in another dimension.
Trying to make me prove a negative = fail. YOU have to prove that it IS in another LOCATION. W/c you can't because ALL evidence prove that it isn't.
Your understanding of the rules = incorrect.
Your Logic = Biased = FAIL.
My evidence = Many.
Your evidence = ZERO.
Originally posted by h1a8
2. You continue to use bad analogies. The best debaters here don't do this. Goober, Galan, etc. Wolverine healing his adamantium is totally unrelated since it is not part of his body. It's a foreign substance in him. My argument is very strong. For it is at least very believable that Dr. M can teleport molecules or at least large chunks of matter. A desperate person asks for proof even though it is very believable that something can happen. Also either wolverine brain was still intact when he was burned to a crisp or cut to pieces or it was PIS. Pick one. The suspension of disbelief doesn't go against the logically impossible, it goes against the factually impossible. It is logically impossible for anything to be koed by being hit and not by being separated into many pieces.
Let's break this down, too.
-My Analogy is only "bad" because it is based on your logic.
-You have no proof that Dr M can do this. In debates, what a person has been proven to do >>>>> what a person MAY be able to do via extrapolation. Your logic fails as it is based on an unproven assumption and it is biased because you throw the word PIS on feats that were even SHOWN ON-PANEL and argue for feats that weren't even performed by YOUR character.
-This is comics. Of course things can be logically impossible as well as factually impossible. Do even read comics? Punching dimensions apart thru sheer kinetic force alone even though more powerful kinetic attacks have occurred before from more powerful beings and DIDN'T tear the fabric of the dimension?? -_- yeah, that's logically/factually accurate.
-Yet another double standard argument brought to you by h1a8.
-Incorrect. Stardust has been KOd before (albeit a short time) but survived being completely having his molecules completely scattered across the cosmos by the Galactus weapon. This is comics, if you don't like it, don't read it and certainly don't come here and argue about it.
-Also, ON-PANEL evidence has shown the Surfer being able to survive/shrug off fatal (to humans) injuries on several occasions (I named at least 3 instances). Whether you don't like it or not, this happened ON-PANEL and denial doesn't really help your argument any.
Your logic = biased, ignorant, incorrect and rife with double standards.
Denial =/= logical proof.
My Evidence = Many.
Your Evidence = Denial = ZERO.
Originally posted by h1a8
3. I used several things to show Dr. M with FTL reflexes. You are only rebutting one of them. Doesn't matter if the tv exploded at the speed of light or not. It could have been broken for years for all we care. It was the fact of how fast Dr. M repaired it that made the difference.
Let's break THIS down:
-You mentioned one: The TV feat (w/c isn't even proof at all). Please point out if you have ANY OTHER proof.
-Complex actions =/= reaction speed. Your "TV means FTL reflexes" doesn't make sense at all.
Matter Maninpulation =/= reaction speed (REALLY!!! how STUPID an argument is that??? I mean COME ON!!!)
Your logic = FAIL.
Your evidence = ZERO.
Originally posted by h1a8
4. Surfer is far faster than light AFTER spending time to accelerate to that speed. He isn't that fast instantly. Dr. M would have sufficient time to make an action well before he even gets to light speed. And even if he doesn't then surfer can do nothing, as Dr. M would just regenerate or just multiply many fold.
Let's break THIS down:
-You have no proof that Dr M can react at FTL.
-You checked my friend's math, this "time" period you talk about is so tiny, it won't play a factor unless the person the Surfer is against has FTL reflexes to begin with.
-10 seconds = KO. If you base this on the movie (w/c you admittedly are) Dr M has been dispersed before and it took WAY more than 10 seconds to reform. Means Surfer wins.
Your logic = FAIL
My logic = backed by evidence = correct.
Your evidence = ZERO.
Originally posted by h1a8
5. Surfer has an entire comic career as to show what is rare and what isn't. PIS goes out the window when someone only had one to a few appearances. Plus I showed at least 3 things of how Dr. M got FTL reflexes. 3 things in one appearance is totally valid.
Now for this:
-The Surfer has ENTIRE comic career of affecting BOTH the physical and the nonphysical with his powers. From telepathy, Astral Projection, repairing a person's psyche, battling Mephisto's corruption, destroying/rescuing beings in the Astral Plane, resisting soul suck attacks, escaping the Soul gem, canceling psionic camouflage from powerful telepaths. ANYONE who reads the Surfer would NEVER categorize the Astral feat as PIS.
Sadly, you don't read Surfer comics. I don't even know if you read comics at all.
-Where are these "3 things" you're talking about. I just went thru your arguments again TWICE and I don't see any FTL reaction feat that you mentioned. If I missed it, please REPOST, otherwise, I'll have to call BS on this.
-Repairing a TV is not FTL reaction speed. It is matter manipulation. This logic is so fail, I'll just have to point at it and laugh. Yet more proof that you don't read comics.
Your understanding of the Surfer's history = nonexistent.
Your logic = FAIL.
My evidence = Many.
Your evidence = ZERO.
Originally posted by h1a8
6. Why doesn't it give Dr. M the same level of control. It is far easier to teleport something than it is to transmute something. In transmutation I have to carefully put subatomic particles in the correct order by moving them accurately withing the nearest .001 of an angstrom. Teleportation requires just teleporting it. Doesn't matter how accurate the teleport is. Can be within the nearest 1 m or 10m for all we care. The same molecule Dr. M is moving with absolute precision can just be teleported without much precision.
And for this:
-Because Teleportation and Matter Manipulation are TWO DIFFERENT powers under TWO DIFFERENT rules.
-You ASSUME it is easier. You ASSUME that you understand how Dr M's matter manipulation works. You also ASSUME that you know how his teleportation works. You then ASSUME that the powers are related in the type of skillset needed to control them. And finally, you ASSUME that
-Your argue that it would be hard for someone (you) to move molecules accurately. And then argue that it would be easier for someone to teleport MOLECULES. Lemme get this straight, it is EASIER for someone to TELEPORT something than to move something accurately?? Really? Did you bump your head? I think you might be suffering from a concussion.
Your Argument = Assumption
Your Evidence = ZERO
Your Logic = FAIL (really really HARD).
Originally posted by h1a8
7. Cowardice is a product of Pride. Otherwise, what would one be afraid of in admitting they are wrong. Ignorance is false since I said "when they know they are".
-I'll have to concede agreement here. Cowardice may be argued as a product of pride.
-I, however, can't see how bragging about how "humble" you are" can be a form of defense to refute arrogance. /facepalm
-"When they know they are" doesn't apply to you as you are still ignorant until now.
Originally posted by h1a8
8. Your copy and paste of logical fallacies text doesn't apply to fictional things. These characters never existed and thus the truth only lies in the writer's mind.
-MY logical fallacies aren't based on the comic characters themselves, but are based on YOUR logical argumentation style.
-You don't see the hypocrisy here? You deny proper logical parameters (and toss in "suspension of disbelief"😉 when it suits you but apply STRICT logical parameters ("one cannot survive being cut apart when one can be KOd by getting hit in the head"😉 when it is convenient.
-Yet another double standard brought to you h1a8.
I'm just going by the movies, here. I'm much too busy to read a zillion pages of comics to know who's power is what.
Let's see. SS gets knocked off his board by a bunch of smart humans using some fancy electrical signal. Not only do they take his board from him, but hold him hostage in some Russian dungeon. And he needs help from those same humans to get his board back. Why couldn't he just power out and overtake the humans?
Not only that, but he's Galactus' b***h. "Ooh, he'll destroy my home world if I disobey." Lol. Hilarious.
My money's on Dr. Manhattan.
Originally posted by Titronus
I'm just going by the movies, here. I'm much too busy to read a zillion pages of comics to know who's power is what.Let's see. SS gets knocked off his board by a bunch of smart humans using some fancy electrical signal. Not only do they take his board from him, but hold him hostage in some Russian dungeon. And he needs help from those same humans to get his board back. Why couldn't he just power out and overtake the humans?
Not only that, but he's Galactus' b***h. "Ooh, he'll destroy my home world if I disobey." Lol. Hilarious.
My money's on Dr. Manhattan.
Movie Surfer sucked balls.
Comic Surfer would buttrape Manhattan.
Originally posted by Titronus
I'm just going by the movies, here. I'm much too busy to read a zillion pages of comics to know who's power is what.Let's see. SS gets knocked off his board by a bunch of smart humans using some fancy electrical signal. Not only do they take his board from him, but hold him hostage in some Russian dungeon. And he needs help from those same humans to get his board back. Why couldn't he just power out and overtake the humans?
Not only that, but he's Galactus' b***h. "Ooh, he'll destroy my home world if I disobey." Lol. Hilarious.
My money's on Dr. Manhattan.
.... read some comic books man... They can be worth it more often than they disappoint. Now if I only had the funds to blow on comics.
