Originally posted by D_Dude1210It's called leaving the battlefield. And once or twice of a very rare exotic feat isn't enough to prove it's validity.
Except for the times he has.Not against the rules. Reread my arguments regarding BFR and ADDRESS them or concede.
Done multiple tiimes (w/ scans). Next.
It's called inductive reasoning. They don't argue it because it's too rare of a feat and it is leaving the battlefield.
Just because it isn't argued against other herald levelrs doesn't make it invalid as a feat. What kind of retarded logic is that???
Many of them haven't been shown resistance to Astral attacks. Some have but many haven't.
It's also rarely argued against herald levelers because many of them has SHOWN resistance to TP or Astral attack or can be dispatched by much simpler means.
SS doesn't have the instant speed from rest like say a Superman has. Dr. M has shown at least light speed reflexes. And Dr. M can just reform himself anyway. So how is that a valid tactic for SS anyway?
Tho I believe Surfer can easily combo to SCATTER Dr M due to his speed and superior power, your retarded argumentation that he can just replicate himself over and over again can easily be trumped by the Surfer pulling one PROVEN ability he's demonstrated more than once before.
No you didn't. See previous posts pls.
Actually, I did. See previous posts pls.
No I don't, it's given from the premises. If Dr. M can control subatomic particles and teleport others then he can teleport subatomic particles as well. If not then he can just teleport large chunks of SS apart (his brain too) to get the same result.
In matter manipulation, NOT teleportation. You need to prove that he can PRECISELY teleport TINY OBJECTS and VAST NUMBERS.
Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. It's far harder to transmute objects than it is to teleport them. Even if this isn't the case then Dr. M still can teleport SS apart (just not on the molecular level).
Again, precision of one ability doesn't translate to another w/o proof. Where the hell do you learn your logic from?
SS reforming is PIS. Otherwise most of his history would be false (Thanos koing him, Odin one shotting him, Thor rocking and koing him, etc.). He would be unbeatable by anyone except his master and above. Durability can protect anything from teleportation. Even adamantium can be teleported. 3. is not happening due to the reasoning explain before.
3 Things.
1) Won't do much to someone who can reform/manipulate his own body when needed.
2) His durability would allow him to tank it.
3) Is this BEFORE or AFTER Surfer combo to disperses him thru a speed blitz?
Again a lie is something intentionally done to deceive others. My words "I never lie" meant "I never lie on this forum". Taking someone literally doesn't prove they lied, but only said a false statement.
You mean THIS quote?
How could it be relevant when it played no part in the 50 Earth weights of force calculation? Explain that one!
I don't see ON THIS FORUM here. Pls point out where you typed that. OH? What's that? Got busted with a LIE again???Awww tooo baaad.
Except that the fact that he had HELP is relevant.
No defense I see you have. I got you here.
Not the issue at hand. :-/Nice try at attempting to derail the thread tho.
I agree my words could be misinterpreted by others. But I didn't think of that since I was merely talking to you only. You are the only one who I'm debating with. My mind wasn't on anyone else. Thus I didn't lie since it wasn't intentional.
You omitted important facts on a public (w/c can most likely be read and misinterpreted by others) site and got called on it, now you're saying that since you mentioned something some time back, it compensates for your deliberate commission of relevant information?I call BS, Mr Liarman.
You might wanna check your pants. I think they're on fire.
If I misinterpreted your points, please repost them and explain them HERE pls.I ALREADY underlined the items where you mentioned these arguments. It's not my fault you ignore relevant arguments when you can't address them. I'm not about to dig thru pages of garbage posts (your posts) and relevant info (posts by others) just cause you're not able to DO YOUR "JOB" when I've already done MY part.
If you're too lazy, just concede, otherwise, look for my arguments and ADDRESS THEM PLS.
I said, strength feats are commutative
I said, exotic feats are not
I said, being able to teleport others, put one's being and others back together, and being able to control subatomic particles, implies that one can teleport individual molecules.
These are my past arguments. Where is the contradiction?
Originally posted by D_Dude1210I don't recall saying statement 2. I definitely said statement 4 and 3. I'm not so sure about 1 either. The only thing that's contradictory is 2.
Actually, I'll even make it easier for you!W/c of the 4 logical statements (that I summarized) are you DENYING that you posted? Would be fun to catch u with another lie. 😄
"Teleportation/matter manip is commutative so teleporting some1's molecules can be done!"
"Teleportation is NOT comutatitve!"
"Teleporting someone's molecules apart isn't matter manipulation!!"
"The fact that Dr M has fine control of subatomic particles (matter manip) AND can teleport ppl proves that he can teleport molecules apart!!!"
1,3, and 4 do not form a contradictory argument.
Originally posted by h1a8
I don't recall saying statement 2. I definitely said statement 4 and 3. I'm not so sure about 1 either. The only thing that's contradictory is 2.
Originally posted by h1a8
Surfer can't teleport people. Not only you need to show one instance but several of them to prove he can. This is a specific exotic power which is not commutative like strength is.
I think you need to check your pants for fire.
Originally posted by h1a8
1,3, and 4 do not form a contradictory argument.
"Teleporting someone's molecules apart isn't matter manipulation!!"
"The fact that Dr M has fine control of subatomic particles (matter manip) AND can teleport ppl proves that he can teleport molecules apart!!!"
You REALLY don't see the contradiction here??? Haha. Reaaaaad slowly pls, you'll get it eventually! You can DO EET! 😄
Also, pls address the rest of my points or concede.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Again I didn't say statement 2. That statement in which you just quoted means that SS turning gold into iron doesn't mean he can teleport objects, he must also show he can teleport objects as well to be given to him. Teleporting objects and controlling subatomic particles commutes to teleporting molecules.
I think you need to check your pants for fire.
"Teleporting someone's molecules apart isn't matter manipulation!!"
"The fact that Dr M has fine control of subatomic particles (matter manip) AND can teleport ppl proves that he can teleport molecules apart!!!"You REALLY don't see the contradiction here??? Haha. Reaaaaad slowly pls, you'll get it eventually! You can DO EET! 😄
Also, pls address the rest of my points or concede.
P=/=Q doesn't contradict Q*T=>P
I can prove this using a truth table.
Sometimes it takes two factors to imply one, or sometimes one factor isn't enough.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
surfer has better and more control over his molecules than manhattan can ever hope to have/topic
i's funny that you never came up with this bullshit when they had the doctor manhattan vs superman thread, you stayed silent
That's because I said "spite, there's nothing Superman can do to Dr. M". Dr. M beats Superman 10/10 too.
Originally posted by h1a8
Again I didn't say statement 2. That statement in which you just quoted means that SS turning gold into iron doesn't mean he can teleport objects, he must also show he can teleport objects as well to be given to him. Teleporting objects and controlling subatomic particles commutes to teleporting molecules.1. Teleporting someone's molecules isn't matter manipulation
This can be written logically as [b]P=/=Q (or P<=>Q)
where P is teleporting molecules and Q is matter manipulation.
2. Controlling subatomic particles and able to teleport other things implies teleporting molecules apart.
The can be written logically as Q*T=>P
where T is teleporting objects.P=/=Q doesn't contradict Q*T=>P
I can prove this using a truth table.Sometimes it takes two factors to imply one, or sometimes one factor isn't enough. [/B]
Nice try. See? This is the problem with you, the minute you are painted into a corner, you try and deceive ppl using math that is rife with false assumptions and fake logic using misleading variables. This is what you are doing again.
Your above "logic" is pure deception and you know it. "Matter Manipulation" is a general power and any type of manipulation of matter (including teleportation) within the subatomic region is considered a FORM matter manipulation. The fact that you signify Q*T means that you acknowledge that BOTH teleportaion AND matter manipulation needs to be present for such an a feat to be possible THUS PROVING via your logic that teleporting molecules is a FORM of matter manipulation.
You're a proven liar, and now you're trying to mislead/deceive ppl. Good joooob.
THIS is your MO, h1. The minute you fail at logic, you run to false and misleading mathematical logic to try and divert the debate to fail
You did this for the Superman debate we had and now you're doing it here. Nice try, but I won't fall for this you know. I will no longer reply to your math BS until you successfully address my previous logical posts.
In case you IGNORE my above statement and insist on diluting this discussion further with your misleading math, bear in mind that I'll just repost the above paragraph via quotes to prove your desperation.
LASTLY, you never addressed my MAIN points that destroyed all your arguments. I'll take this as a concession on your part.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210respect
Nice try. See? This is the problem with you, the minute you are painted into a corner, you try and deceive ppl using math that is rife with false assumptions and fake logic using misleading variables. This is what you are doing again.Your above "logic" is pure deception and you know it. "Matter Manipulation" is a general power and any type of manipulation of matter (including teleportation) within the subatomic region is considered a FORM matter manipulation. The fact that you signify Q*T means that you acknowledge that BOTH teleportaion AND matter manipulation needs to be present for such an a feat to be possible THUS PROVING via your logic that teleporting molecules is a FORM of matter manipulation.
You're a proven liar, and now you're trying to mislead/deceive ppl. Good joooob.
THIS is your MO, h1. The minute you fail at logic, you run to false and misleading mathematical logic to try and divert the debate to fail
You did this for the Superman debate we had and now you're doing it here. Nice try, but I won't fall for this you know. I will no longer reply to your math BS until you successfully address my previous logical posts.
In case you IGNORE my above statement and insist on diluting this discussion further with your misleading math, bear in mind that I'll just repost the above paragraph via quotes to prove your desperation.
[B]LASTLY, you never addressed my MAIN points that destroyed all your arguments. I'll take this as a concession on your part.
[/B]
Even though Superman isn't in this thread...😕
Originally posted by D_Dude1210What! I was never painted into a corner. There is no deception. I believe in what I say and believe it is the absolute truth. I back my facts up with logic, math, and common sense. Without those, everything is nonsense and a waste of time (rubbish).
Nice try. See? This is the problem with you, the minute you are painted into a corner, you try and deceive ppl using math that is rife with false assumptions and fake logic using misleading variables. This is what you are doing again.Your above "logic" is pure deception and you know it. "Matter Manipulation" is a general power and any type of manipulation of matter (including teleportation) within the subatomic region is considered a FORM matter manipulation. The fact that you signify Q*T means that you acknowledge that BOTH teleportaion AND matter manipulation needs to be present for such an a feat to be possible THUS PROVING via your logic that teleporting molecules is a FORM of matter manipulation.
You're a proven liar, and now you're trying to mislead/deceive ppl. Good joooob.
Is milk icecream? No.
Is milk a form of ice cream? No.
Do I need milk to make ice cream? It helps.
Teleportation isn't matter manipulation. When all ppl on this planet mention matter manipulate they are not referring to teleportation. That's why you have beings that can teleport and beings that can matter manipulate as different power sets. One needs not to be able to matter manipulate to teleport. That means that it's possible for a character to be able to teleport molecules but not be able to matter manipulate. It helps though (not essential though) if one can do both in order to prove they can teleport on the molecular level.
Another reason why I know I'm right (besides the logic I used) is because the fact that you say I made false assumptions and false logic without actually pointing it out. If anything I said is so false then I dare you to point it out and reveal it to all. I don't want to deceive anyone. I'm a man of truth, whether I like the outcome or not. If I'm deceiving ppl then please reveal it so that that can't be deceived anymore. Please.
What main points? I addressed everything I believe.
THIS is your MO, h1. The minute you fail at logic, you run to false and misleading mathematical logic to try and divert the debate to failYou did this for the Superman debate we had and now you're doing it here. Nice try, but I won't fall for this you know. I will no longer reply to your math BS until you successfully address my previous logical posts.
In case you IGNORE my above statement and insist on diluting this discussion further with your misleading math, bear in mind that I'll just repost the above paragraph via quotes to prove your desperation.
[B]LASTLY, you never addressed my MAIN points that destroyed all your arguments. I'll take this as a concession on your part.
[/B]
You tried to show I created contradictions when I didn't. The best way to prove a contradiction is to break the argument down in symbolic form and analyze it. Any decent logic/philosophy professor can tell you this.
What's else to discuss? The Superman thing isn't part of this thread, we actually should be discussing that in another thread.
For some reason, your previous post didn't pop up in my office computer (or I couldn't see it). So let me address them now.
Originally posted by h1a8
It's called leaving the battlefield. And once or twice of a very rare exotic feat isn't enough to prove it's validity.
Surfer has multiple Astral/Soul feats. Two SEPARATE Astral attacks in "In thy Name". There was his Soul gem escape feat. His soul suck resistance feat. As well as the feat wherein he rescued Puppet Master from the Astral Plane. More than sufficient showings of an EXOTIC (aka RARE) power (soul abilities). Also, please update your definition of PIS via the rules portion, I don't think you know it's meaning.
State =/= location. This isn't AD&D, you need to read up a little bit more about the proper definition of things before making ignorant statements.
Astal form attack was in the same LOCATION as his physical body, this is why they were BOTH DRAWN to be occupying the same area. Artwork disagrees with you. Astral Plane definition disagrees with you. Not BFR. You haven't disproven this so I'm taking it as a concession on your part.
You failed to address these issues, so I will take that as a concession.
All this rules lawyering from someone who clearly didn't even read the rules or understood the words involved thoroughly. And you have the gall to deny being deceptive.
Originally posted by h1a8
It's called inductive reasoning. They don't argue it because it's too rare of a feat and it is leaving the battlefield.
Inductive reasoning based on the POSSIBLE (unproven) common perception of posters (argumentum ad populum ).
Translation: You're DEBATING based on an unproven logically false guesstimate . Fuuuun.
This entire line of your debate is absolutely pointless.
Originally posted by h1a8
Many of them haven't been shown resistance to Astral attacks. Some have but many haven't.
1) A lot of times, it's not necessary for Surfer to win.
2) A lot of heralds have Astral/Soul/Willpower resistance feats (even Superman). So ppl would naturally not use it to argue against these characters.
Originally posted by h1a8
SS doesn't have the instant speed from rest like say a Superman has. Dr. M has shown at least light speed reflexes. And Dr. M can just reform himself anyway. So how is that a valid tactic for SS anyway?
Oh, and be sure to post more than one or (via your logic) this will be called PIS.
Not being able to fight back (according to the mods, 10 seconds) after being dispersed due to reforming time needed (w/c, from the Watchmen issues I read, took time) can be considered a KO via forum rules.
Originally posted by h1a8
No you didn't. See previous posts pls.
Originally posted by h1a8
No I don't, it's given from the premises. If Dr. M can control subatomic particles and teleport others then he can teleport subatomic particles as well. .
Originally posted by h1a8
If not then he can just teleport large chunks of SS apart (his brain too) to get the same result.
1) Surfer pwns him before he can blink.
2) Surfer tanks it. As he has survived being sliced apart before.
3) You've never proven that Dr M can use teleportation offensively. Post proofs or I call BS on this one, too. Again, different level of skills teleporting large objects vs teleporting smaller objects moving at high speeds.
Originally posted by h1a8
Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. It's far harder to transmute objects than it is to teleport them. Even if this isn't the case then Dr. M still can teleport SS apart (just not on the molecular level).
Originally posted by h1a8
SS reforming is PIS. Otherwise most of his history would be false (Thanos koing him, Odin one shotting him, Thor rocking and koing him, etc.). He would be unbeatable by anyone except his master and above. Durability can protect anything from teleportation. Even adamantium can be teleported. 3. is not happening due to the reasoning explain before.
Examples:
Surfer has been dispersed before (see previous scans). He's been able to nonchalantly reshape his own body via manipulation (In Thy Name when he was skewered by en energy harpoon). As well as reform after being sliced apart. 3 different scans of varying degree. Multiple showings of his ability to survive what would be "fatal wounds" to normal humans. More than enough showings. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not valid.
How many feats does Dr M have that shows him using teleportation offensively? None. I'm sure.
Name an instance where adamantium was DAMAGED via an offensive teleport? None. I'm sure.
Originally posted by h1a8
Again a lie is something intentionally done to deceive others. My words "I never lie" meant "I never lie on this forum". Taking someone literally doesn't prove they lied, but only said a false statement.
Originally posted by h1a8
How could it be relevant when it played no part in the 50 Earth weights of force calculation? Explain that one!
Originally posted by h1a8
No defense I see you have. I got you here.
Via your logic: PIS.
Commutative or not, you need to prove upper limits of strength to establish RANGE before you can claim that lower level strength feats can be derived.
Point out at LEAST THREE feats from Superman with computations where the range is above the "50 Earth weights" BS.
Originally posted by h1a8
I agree my words could be misinterpreted by others. But I didn't think of that since I was merely talking to you only. You are the only one who I'm debating with. My mind wasn't on anyone else. Thus I didn't lie since it wasn't intentional.
BS. You're not THAT dumb are you?
Posting in a public forum MEANS that ppl will read it and the more ignorant posters might be led to believe that you're being truthful about your posts.
Originally posted by h1a8
I said, strength feats are commutative
I said, exotic feats are not
Seriously, you don't see the inherent HYPOCRISY and downright IDIOCY of INSISTING that an EXOTIC (BY DEFINITION: RARE, UNUSUAL, UNCOMMON, SINGULAR, SCARCE, ETC) Ability NEEDS MULTIPLE showings or be deemed PIS?
Fortunately, Surfer HAS multiple showings of his Astral Abilities so this trumps every argument you have.
Originally posted by h1a8
I said, being able to teleport others, put one's being and others back together, and being able to control subatomic particles, implies that one can teleport individual molecules.
The fact that you use the term commutative for teleportation and suddenly, it's NOT? You should use different words to describe the same ability if you don't want to be caught on a contradiction. Or is your vocabulary that limited? I get your reasoning, but I simply pointed out the contradiction/irony in your own words.
Originally posted by h1a8
Is milk icecream? No.
Is milk a form of ice cream? No.
Do I need milk to make ice cream? It helps.
Punching is hitting. Yes.
Punching is a form of hitting. Yes.
You hit something by punching.
Matter Manipulation: Characters capable of consciously manipulating inorganic, and sometimes organic, matter at the molecular, atomic, or sub-atomic scale.
Teleportation at a molecular scale MANIPULATES matter at a molecular scale. True or False?
Originally posted by h1a8
Teleportation isn't matter manipulation. When all ppl on this planet mention matter manipulate they are not referring to teleportation. That's why you have beings that can teleport and beings that can matter manipulate as different power sets. One needs not to be able to matter manipulate to teleport. That means that it's possible for a character to be able to teleport molecules but not be able to matter manipulate. It helps though (not essential though) if one can do both in order to prove they can teleport on the molecular level.
Teleporting beings isn't matter manipulation. But teleporting MOLECULES apart is, you shmoe.
Originally posted by h1a8
Another reason why I know I'm right (besides the logic I used) is because the fact that you say I made false assumptions and false logic without actually pointing it out. If anything I said is so false then I dare you to point it out and reveal it to all. I don't want to deceive anyone. I'm a man of truth, whether I like the outcome or not. If I'm deceiving ppl then please reveal it so that that can't be deceived anymore. Please.
You mislead ppl by using false variables as well as false/unproven assumptions.
Originally posted by h1a8
What main points? I addressed everything I believe.
We agree to disagree on it leaving the battlefield
We agree to disagree that the feat is too rare to be viable in a forum fight (one or two times is not enough).
I've proven that Dr. M can teleport molecules, or at least large chunks of SS (you didn't address that did you) deductively via his shown powers.
Admittedly, the office computer didn't show your reply or at the very least, I didn't see it when it did. See above, I addressed your arguments.
Originally posted by h1a8
You tried to show I created contradictions when I didn't. The best way to prove a contradiction is to break the argument down in symbolic form and analyze it. Any decent logic/philosophy professor can tell you this.What's else to discuss? The Superman thing isn't part of this thread, we actually should be discussing that in another thread.
Except the way you broke down the argument wasn't symbolic of what the argument was. See above.
Teleportion also works differently as it is a general term to describe instantaneous travel. There is the Star Trek version (dematerialization and light speed transportation) and there is simply transferring the space around you (dimensional shift) or opening portals (wormholes/stargates). One REQUIRES that it bypasses durability to work (dematerialization), the others don't as they simply fold/shift space around the targets.
You need to provide proof that Dr M's teleportation works the way you're claiming it to be in order to prove that he can offensively teleport.
Lastly, the Surfer has also dematerialized/teleported himself which would perhaps indicated that he would just simpyl reform from a teleportation attack even IF (big IF) it was succesful:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/7996/ffannual05silversurfer1tl0.jpg
BTW, you never proved that the the Surfer was teleported before. And you need to prove that he was dematerialized (by anyone other than himself or someone that is not vastly more powerful than him) to prove that he has no durabiltiy against teleportation attacks (as you were the one who made this claim that he can be teleported). And you need to provide more than 2 or have it be labeled PIS. Good luck with that.
Basically, you need to provide some freakin proof before spouting ignorant assumptions.
