Surfer/Thor vs Superman/Wonder Woman/Martian Manhunter

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ultimately besides the point. I doubt Surfer is going to be laying off punches and blasts while gently showering him in a lamp of pure gentle red sunlight set at 85 degrees Fahrenheit. And I imagine you'd agree. And if you trace the original argument back to its source, the argument was whether "red sun radiation" affects Superman or not: The term "hurt" got put in there and spawned this entire debacle of a side debate over whether pure gentle red sunlight "hurts" Superman. Bottom-line is, it "affects" him. Arguably, in enough quantities it "pains" him. Definitely, when weaponized, it "hurts" him. And incontrovertibly, you don't need a blackhole to have it affect him.

i agree with that part.

whether surfer would/could make it, and how effective it is against him, is what i'd have issue with, but that's me.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree but the only thing that is debatable that any of the heralds could probably have over surfer is strength and that's even debatable... everything else, the surfer trumps them. Power output, durability, speed, etc.

So I don't understand why people like supes and glads are comparable to someone like surfer who could basically mimic everything that they do with a lot more additional abilities.

no, again.

strength, speed, durability are all debatable. and just because he can mimic something doesn't make him better at it.

look at martian manhunter.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i agree with that part.

Originally posted by -Pr-
whether surfer would/could make it, and how effective it is against him, is what i'd have issue with, but that's me.

But frankly, I don't see any reason for questioning its effectiveness, i.e., whether it would really matter in a fight when it's brought out. Ya, it would matter. Red sun radiation blasts permitted a human in a cybernetically enhanced suit + teleportation unit to fight Superman. Surfer >>>>>>>>>> that on every level. Ya, it would matter. And not in a good way for Superman.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Which part? That it strains credulity to assume that Surfer would be gently showering him with a desk lamp's worth of red sunlight radiation and nothing else? Or the utter asininity of biensalsa's assertion that red sunlight only works when Superman is in a blackhole? This particular argument has never been about whether Surfer would make it (although he has threatened/resorted to such cheap and efficient energy manipulation tactics before, e.g., Gladiator, Hulk, Vision, Wonderman, etc.). Surfer can make it. Even biensalsa doesn't disagree with that. Questioning its effectiveness is always your prerogative. Ultimately, the notion that red sunlight radiation wouldn't hurt unless Superman were also in a blackhole is utterly asinine.

But frankly, I don't see any reason for questioning its effectiveness, i.e., whether it would really matter in a fight when it's brought out. Ya, it would matter. Red sun radiation blasts permitted a human in a cybernetically enhanced suit + teleportation unit to fight Superman. Surfer >>>>>>>>>> that on every level. Ya, it would matter. Not in a good way for Superman.

what you replied to me with.

when i talk about could and would, i'm talking about the likelihood of it, not the capability.

ruin was also an expert on superman, who knew more about him and how his powers work than almost anybody. just because it was a dude in a suit shouldn't void that. look at batman.

Would telepathic/mental assaults from J'onn affect Surfer?

^ He's not immune to it AFAIK. Yes, they would. And you're lucky in that you're not likely to get many arguments from rabid SS fanboys that hold out certain SS telepathy resistance feats and SS physiology facts to manufacture witless pretense and idiotically pretend that telepathy would never work unless Surfer was in a blackhole. /end shameless jab

Originally posted by -Pr-
what you replied to me with.

when i talk about could and would, i'm talking about the likelihood of it, not the capability.

I understood that too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
ruin was also an expert on superman, who knew more about him and how his powers work than almost anybody. just because it was a dude in a suit shouldn't void that. look at batman.

When you consider the Surfer, you have to appreciate that with his power levels, you're far more likely to have scenes akin to Amazo two-shotting Superman with an E-M cocktail blast laced with ample red sun radiation, than to have scenes where some schmuck Earth prison-warden projects a mere lamp's worth of gentle red sun radiation to keep him locked down. The latter exists to be sure, but we already agree on how utterly remote, and therefore inconsequential, it is when we consider Surfer engaging Superman in a fight.

In short, the entire "effectiveness" angle is a red herring to me. You arm a more powerful character with red sun radiation, that's a bigger problem for Superman. It's already a game changer when human characters use it. Arm a Herald with it, and its more likely than not to be just as much, if not more of, a game changer.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
👆

I understood that too. And he used red sun radiation. That was his sole ace card. Red sun radiation can be, and has been used as the ace card by vastly inferior opponents, all things considered equal. Batman is even more evidence of that with a simple Kryptonite ring.

When you consider the Surfer, you have to appreciate that with his power levels, you're far more likely to have scenes akin to Amazo two-shotting Superman with an E-M cocktail blast laced with ample red sun radiation, than to have scenes where some schmuck Earth prison-warden projects a mere lamp's worth of red sun radiation to keep him locked down. The latter exists to be sure, but we already agree on how utterly remote, and therefore inconsequential, it is when we consider Surfer engaging Superman in a fight.

In short, the entire "effectiveness" angle is a red herring to me. You arm a more powerful character with red sun radiation, that's a bigger problem for Superman. It's already a game changer when human characters use it. Arm a Herald with it, and is more likely than not to be just as much, if not more of, a game changer.

which ties in to my likelihood point.

i'm not going to argue that surfer using red sun radiation gives him an edge. that would be pointless.

Originally posted by -Pr-
which ties in to my likelihood point.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm not going to argue that surfer using red sun radiation gives him an edge. that would be pointless.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
An argument for another day, perhaps? 👆 Unfortunately,... that sh1tty pointless argument will likely continue with or without your participation for at least several more pages. 👇

My big issue is the whole cosmic awareness thing.

And no, we're not getting in to it. Ever.

Cosmic awareness always helped out weaker characters like :

Originally posted by -Pr-
My big issue is the whole cosmic awareness thing.

And no, we're not getting in to it. Ever.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Not true. The timeline in which Superman became evil NEVER was accomplished, like that timeliene there are SEVERAL time line that NEVER become reality

He says "I KNOW YOUR WEAKNESS" , Not "I SENSED"

That + the fact that He meet Gladiator WAY before Devourer + the fact that the Skrull KNOW Glads Weaknesses + His frienship with a Kree citizen which are at odds with the SHIAR'S + not another showing of him detecting weaknesses on a character that I'm aware of.

He is not more powerful, his tiny other powers, do not compensate the fact that SM is far stronger than SS, Speed? Not much advantage as many believe, Energy output? Matched in several feats Energy Absorption? SM outshined SS. Punching and destroying Moons, palnetoids and meteorites? SM outshines SS. Combat Skill? SM above SS. Punching SEVERAL times in a second? SM outshines SS.
Transmutation SS wins, Global EMP? SAME and so on. SS minor powers are not a huge advantage and IF SS is more powerful than SM is not for much when you consider the advantages SM has on some departments
Yes he is more versatile, but SM IS NOT BYRNE SM ANYMORE

And MOST PEOPLE still think SM IS AT HIS POWER LEVEL OF 1992

WTF

Originally posted by psycho gundam
scared? 😖hifty:

lol. nice try.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Would telepathic/mental assaults from J'onn affect Surfer?

Originally posted by 753
Most likely. He'd actually have a much better shot at the SS than SM.

If what you say, is true. This could end in a hurry.

Originally posted by BobbyD
If what you say, is true. This could end in a hurry.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I was expecting you to show here at any give moment.

Please provide evidence of SS detecting weaknesses on characters other than the questionable feat of Gladiator in canon comics.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Energy output? Matched in several feats Energy Absorption? SM outshined SS. SS minor powers are not a huge advantage

😂 😂 😂 😂

So energy and matter manipulation are minor powers now?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 👆 👆 You mean he absorbed enough energy to disarm the Mageddon warhead? And ironically, a sun at best. A small, tiny, anti-sun.

Unilord. Also:

Your trolling is annoying

A TINY LITTLE SUN WITH ENOUGH ENERGY TO VAPORIZE HALF A GALAXY.

Even the angels at the PAXDEI were getting ready to make a new universe.

Half a Galaxy buster at the least, when has Surfer ever absorbed so much energy?

As I recall He was crying in pain with enough energy to reignite the a dying sun.

I'll come back later, becuase I do not have enough time for you right now

Originally posted by biensalsa
Your trolling is annoying

A TINY LITTLE SUN WITH ENOUGH ENERGY TO [B] VAPORIZE HALF A GALAXY.

Even the angels at the PAXDEI were getting ready to make a new universe.

Half a Galaxy buster at the lest, when has Surfer ever absorbed so much energy?

As I recall He was crying in pain with enough energy to reignite the a dying sun.

I'll come back later, becuase I do not have enough time for you right now [/B]

He left himself open for that attack and unprotected..

Originally posted by biensalsa
Your trolling is annoying

A TINY LITTLE SUN WITH ENOUGH ENERGY TO [B] VAPORIZE HALF A GALAXY.[/B]

When detonated. Not to mention the artist dropped the ball on that one. One moment Superman is suffering from the anti-sunlight in his body, the next he's...completely unharmed.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Even the angels at the PAXDEI were getting ready to make a new universe.

Earth. New Earth. Why argue when you can't even get the facts right?

Supes wouldnt even b a prob for the Surfer. So this would go to team one.