Surfer/Thor vs Superman/Wonder Woman/Martian Manhunter

Originally posted by biensalsa
Come on, you think they are going to publish something as vanal as that?

This scan

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/...ourer518no4.jpg

Is a MISSLEADING feat

First of all it ommits CRITICAL information

Silver Surfer has interacted with the Shiar empire, the Skrull empire and the Kree empire WAY BEFORE that feat. Any of those empires will be capable of knowing Gladiator's weakness.
Isn't Genis part of the Kree?

That is why MOST LIKELLY HE says in that scan "I KNOW", not "I sense"

If you can prove that Silver Surfer NEVER interacted WITH ANY OF THOSE empires PRIOR to this "first encounter" I concede that He "sensed a wakness"

He meet GLADIATOR WAAAAAAY before that. Is a missleading feat.

Silver Surfer detecting weaknesses is VERY, VERY QUESTIONABLE and most likelly not true

Originally posted by biensalsa
[B]No, Sir, you are accusing me of something that is not true, trying to rest credibility to my argument.

ON PANEL AND WITH PROOF, I showed you why Kryptonite made by someone who is not from Superman's universe or Kryptonite not from Superman's universe will not harm Superman. Element Lad from Prime universe was the only one capable of creating Kryptonite that Hurts Superboy Prime, Firestorm was not capable of doing it.

Firestorm HAS MORE KNOWLEDGE OF KRYPTONITE AND IS MORE CAPABLE THAN SILVER SURFER TO DO THIS

I'll ask you again
"Now The Firestorm from "OUR" Universe tried the same trick on SBP and it did NOT WORK. Firestorm is better at matter transmutation than Surfer. So if Firestorm couldn't pull the trick of creating alternative universe Kryptonite, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK Silver Surfer can? "

Kryptonite from DIFFERENT universes have a different wave length radiation, in addition to that, they work on a different vibrational pattern.

Besides and in order to put an end to this myth of "SS creating Kryptonite".

Rules of the forum say "Everybody knows Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite" granted that is a huge disadvantage for Superman, BUT, the CHEMICAL COMPOSITION AND RADIOACTIVE WAVELENGTH OF KNITE IS NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE 😂 [quote]

The assumption that SS could make the right kind of knite resides on the fact that he ahs cosmic awareness and could deduce the exact atomic make up of knite from the specific frequency that his CA informs him that would hurt SM.

SS has succesfully sensed and understood the workings of his opponents' powers and their weaknesses, including the Hulk.

[quote] "The more stress he is under, the more energy He RETAINS from the sun"

Does Hulk RETAINS more energy based on his stress level?

WWH ENDING ANYONE?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Hulk/HULKWWH.jpg

As a matter of fact he does. His gamma radiation intake from the extradimensional source increases with stress, he becomes stronger adn emmits more gamma radiation as a side effect. Those satellite beams were specifically designed to suck him dry. That's exactly what would happen to SM under stress fighting the SS.

To effectively drain him out, He will need to be out of contact from any sun light or starlight as He has also been powered by starlight and Plant mitosis in the past. So, Good Luck with that 😄

No, PC Superman saying that He can split a diamond planet in Half is believable, CURRENT Superman at his Current power level in which He lifts singularities is conceivable. Silver Surfer being capable of move is limbs at nanosecond reaction time? ONLY IN HALLUCINATIONS created by the fear eater

Originally posted by biensalsa

Kindergarten mistake

Since when ALTERNATE TIME LINES OF A UNIVERSE IS = TO A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE?

😂 A character from the same universe on a different time-line did it

Parallel time lines, same UNIVERSE

Since always actually. Alternate timelines are different universes, this is consistant in both DC and Marvel.

To finish it off. There is no actual reason to deduce SS learned of Gladiator's weakness through any ohter way than his CA as nothing in the comic hints at it. And the SS is not only superior to SM in versatility, but all arround more powerfull. The combat efficiency of SM's comparativelly limited powerset is what allows him to hang with beings much more powerfull than he is in battle, true. But still, SS has created an enourmous black hole through energy output alone. His raw power is at least on par with SM's and most people in all the forums agree that it's a good deal above.

Originally posted by -Pr-
#645 he's not just bathing him in red sun. he's using energy blasts. plus, they're still engaged in physical combat for parts of the fight while superman is weakened.
granted #647 is more ambiguous, but not enough to make me believe that red sun by itself is harmful.

the amazo one and the up, up and away examples don't do it for me either, tbh.

if anything they're examples that red sun needs to be used as an actual weapon rather than a simple light source to actually hurt him.

what crisis of conscience part are you talking about?

Originally posted by -Pr-
eh, he's still hitting him with flames of a sort.

if he's hitting him with just red solar radiation (like lamps and such) it shouldn't cause him pain.

it seems to be when it's weaponised that it causes him trouble.

at least imo.

i can honestly see why people would think red sun can cause him pain, and that's fine. its a contentious enough subject that even if i think someone's wrong, it's not enough of a thing where i feel they're trolling to say otherwise. it's a fair argument either way...

Originally posted by biensalsa
and Red Sun radiation? Unless they are in a black hole it will not work.

Originally posted by -Pr-
More powers =/= More powerful.

I agree but the only thing that is debatable that any of the heralds could probably have over surfer is strength and that's even debatable... everything else, the surfer trumps them. Power output, durability, speed, etc.

So I don't understand why people like supes and glads are comparable to someone like surfer who could basically mimic everything that they do with a lot more additional abilities.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you mean by alternate timelines as in, Cosmic King did not come from the future of Superman's timeline, but an alternate timeline, then yes, Cosmic King is from an alternate universe.

Had Cosmic King come from Superman's direct future, you'd have an argument. Because he didn't, you don't.

ALternate universe character made Kryptonite that affected Superman. No need to be so butt-hurt about it.

Anomalies of the same universe, traveling back in time to alter their past so they can ensure their future. DOES NOT MEANS THEY ARE FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE, but only from another time-line in the same universe

If they were from another universe, then They will still existed AFTER the end of the story.

Each Universe has different time lines

Had this timelines being different universes there should have been a Batman and a Superman per each "universe" besides them.

The only time He encountered a Superman was his "POSSIBLE" future self.

Different Timelines are not equal to different universes.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline21.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline3.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Too bad you didn't read Superman/Batman #18.

Great argument pal clapping

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He didn't fly inside Rao. He flew through it. And they were screaming.

And more than capable to withstand RED SUN'S CORE TEMPERATURES while being depowered and surrounded by Knite.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't know why you posted that scan. Because Hulk does retain more energy based on his stress level. The laser completely depowered him. Same as red sun energy has completely depowered Superman in the past. Use some common sense. Posting links without making appropriate deductions =/= cogent argumentation.

Hulk GENERATES more Gamma radiation, there is nowhere indication that He retains it more based on his stress level, If any there is indication of the contrary base on his figth vs Thor in Hellas realm in which He is fighting Thor and He is STRUGLING to keep his gamma level up in order to keep his Hulk transformation

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Anything summoned magically is automatically magical? That's pretty retarded. So I magically teleport a kitchen knife from my kitchen. I can now use it to stab Superman because it's been imbued with magical properties? Don't be so stucking fupid.

I have seen Zatanna pulling the same tricks, from rabits commming out of her hat. The instance of Summonig Rao clearly shows not a RED RADIATION, BUT A WHITE ONE. The other one done by the same spellcaster shows actual FLAMES. And knowing Faust is a better spell caster than you I don't see why not, So don't be so whatever you called me and think for a second that IS CONCEIVABLE. bangin

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman has been weakened by red sunlight blasts while in sunlight. It does depend on the intensity. Assuming Surfer cannot muster enough intensity is where you decided to take a leap of idiocy to make your conclusions. But, good luck with that.

Low Balling

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I choose to believe Surfer's words. You choose to believe PC Superman's words that are irrelevant to Superman.

It does not change the fact that his nanosecond feat is USELESS

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't claim this as a stomp. But should Surfer choose to suck the yellow radiation out, I don't see it being much of a problem at all. He can suck the gamma radiation instantly out of Hulk who accesses it from a dimension of infinite gamma radiation. And if Surfer simply blocks it completely (with or without red sunlight), that's it, he's done. Which you agree with, since red sunlight doesn't strip his powers, it just blocks it.

How is he going to suck the yellow radiation out? WHAT PART OF "HE RETAINS YELLOW SOLAR ENERGY BASED ON HIS STRESS" YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? Even Under red sun, He has enough energy to move with help a freaking planet 16 times the size of earth

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The three Supermen screaming in the first scan doesn't give me faith you read comics. And natural non-yellow sunlight-powered Kryptonians =/= Superman. Superman has screamed in pain from red sunlight. Many times.

I corrected my post, but you decided to cling onto the one with the missplace error.

Red sunlight DOES NOT HURT, can you get that in your head?
Like someone said If it is weaponized, yes then it could hurt, but more because of the WEAPON part more than anything.

Superman has also NOT Screamed from red sunlight MANY TIMES.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And red sunlight hurts.

doh Is a FREAKING OPEN SOLAR FLAME ON HIS FACE!
Even if you are not vulnerable to it, IS GOING TO HURT, THE GUY IS A FREAKING WALKING RED STAR!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I will post scans of Superman screaming in pain tonight from those comics. I'm sorry for you pretending not remembering the comic.

Weaponized 😆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Prove that the first time Surfer met Gladiator, Gladiator told him his own weakness. Your question is utterly inconsequential.

Burdern of proof? The feat of SS "detecting" weaknesses is at best QUESTIONABLE.

Other person should have come up with SS detecting some one elses weaknesses. And like I told you "DETECTING" Telepaths do not count

Originally posted by Naija boy
Not 616 surfer.......

Thanks do you have issue #?

Originally posted by 753
No it's not, he's done it several trimes and cosmic awareness is a standard and commonly used aspect of his powerset.

I was expecting you to show here at any give moment.

Please provide evidence of SS detecting weaknesses on characters other than the questionable feat of Gladiator in canon comics.

Originally posted by 753
The transmuter doesn't have to be from the same universe as the kryptonian as you claimed, he simply needs to be able to create the exact same kind of kryptonite as the one from the kryptonian's birth universe (even then ODG showed exceptions).
Firestorm, who has no cosmic awareness, couldn't do it because he'd need to know what the particular type of kryptonite is like and he didn't. If he knew the chemical composition, it would have worked.

ODG "exception" is SAME universe, different time line.

Like I told before to KGKG I remember an instance of needing to match also the vibrational frequency of the kryptonian's universe. But I could be wrong, still I'm looking for this evidence

Originally posted by 753
As a matter of fact he does. His gamma radiation intake from the extradimensional source increases with stress, he becomes stronger adn emmits more gamma radiation as a side effect. Those satellite beams were specifically designed to suck him dry. That's exactly what would happen to SM under stress fighting the SS.

Hulk vs Thor in Hellas realm does not backup this claim.

And what evidence do you have that this will be exactly what would happen to SM?

Originally posted by 753
Not really, just drain more than SM can suck in. Besides, SS can actually bend all the sunlight away from SM and the whole battlefield. Doctor Polaris depowered SM instantly and SS is far above him.

He can suck half a galaxy buster. Polaris "depower" him for 1 second and He regain powers right away. Does SS has magnetical powers above Polaris? I do not recall seing this. And the stress factor was low when he fought Polaris

Originally posted by 753
So he hallucinated about the knowledge of his own speed? Doubtfull. the point is that he can form a sentence in his mind and act upon it in the timeframe of a nanosecond. He has many other superspeed reaction and coordination feats as well.

Provide OTHER evidence of explicit nanosecond reaction time or above

Originally posted by biensalsa
I was expecting you to show here at any give moment.

Please provide evidence of SS detecting weaknesses on characters other than the questionable feat of Gladiator in canon comics.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Anomalies of the same universe, traveling back in time to alter their past so they can ensure their future. DOES NOT MEANS THEY ARE FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE, but only from another time-line in the same universe

Originally posted by biensalsa
If they were from another universe, then They will still existed AFTER the end of the story.

Each Universe has different time lines

Had this timelines being different universes there should have been a Batman and a Superman per each "universe" besides them.

The only time He encountered a Superman was his "POSSIBLE" future self.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Different Timelines are not equal to different universes.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline21.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/timeline3.jpg

Originally posted by biensalsa
Great argument pal

Originally posted by biensalsa
And more than capable to withstand RED SUN'S CORE TEMPERATURES while being depowered and surrounded by Knite.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Hulk GENERATES more Gamma radiation, there is nowhere indication that He retains it more based on his stress level, If any there is indication of the contrary base on his figth vs Thor in Hellas realm in which He is fighting Thor and He is STRUGLING to keep his gamma level up in order to keep his Hulk transformation

Originally posted by biensalsa
I have seen Zatanna pulling the same tricks, from rabits commming out of her hat. The instance of Summonig Rao clearly shows not a RED RADIATION, BUT A WHITE ONE. The other one done by the same spellcaster shows actual FLAMES. And knowing Faust is a better spell caster than you I don't see why not, So don't be so whatever you called me and think for a second that IS CONCEIVABLE.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Low Balling

It does not change the fact that his nanosecond feat is USELESS

How is he going to suck the yellow radiation out? WHAT PART OF "HE RETAINS YELLOW SOLAR ENERGY BASED ON HIS STRESS" YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? Even Under red sun, He has enough energy to move with help a freaking planet 16 times the size of earth

Useless to a hypocrite like you, I know.

Because Superman has had his yellow sun radiation sucked out... while stressed. You act like his stress completely prevents him from having it sucked out. It doesn't. It hasn't. On-panel. Read Superman comics.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I corrected my post, but you decided to cling onto the one with the missplace error.

Red sunlight DOES NOT HURT, can you get that in your head? Like someone said If it is weaponized, yes then it could hurt, but more because of the WEAPON part more than anything. Superman has also NOT Screamed from red sunlight MANY TIMES. Is a FREAKING OPEN SOLAR FLAME ON HIS FACE! Even if you are not vulnerable to it, IS GOING TO HURT, THE GUY IS A FREAKING WALKING RED STAR! Weaponized

Red sunlight has hurt Superman. On-panel. I understand that you want to project some extra angle onto the red sun radiation EVERY SINGLE TIME to make it seem like Superman's never been hurt by it, e.g., magic, weaponization, etc.

But the fact remains. It has hurt Superman before. And Surfer can use red solar flavored Power Cosmic blasts if he wants. That's his "weaponization." I'll just make use of the same assumptions you make and defeat your own tangential arguments.

But ultimately, this entire tangential argument is pointless. We all know that the use of red sun radiation has not only depowered Superman, it's hurt Superman and affected Superman. All without the presence of a blackhole. I understand you're likely to try to move the goalposts here and escape from that initial blunderous statement. But that's what I've been arguing with. Next time, don't try to propagate ridiculous myths with such asinine absolutes. I know that's what you believe in your heart of hearts. Don't pretend like you can prove it though.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Burdern of proof? The feat of SS "detecting" weaknesses is at best QUESTIONABLE.

Other person should have come up with SS detecting some one elses weaknesses. And like I told you "DETECTING" Telepaths do not count

Originally posted by biensalsa

Hulk vs Thor in Hellas realm does not backup this claim.

And what evidence do you have that this will be exactly what would happen to SM?

He can suck half a galaxy buster.

Polaris "depower" him for 1 second and He regain powers right away.

Does SS has magnetical powers above Polaris? I do not recall seing this. And the stress factor was low when he fought Polaris

Provide OTHER evidence of explicit nanosecond reaction time or above [/B]

Feats that clock the time of action are rare for all characters, but he has several others that consistant with that level of superspeed such as:

rescuing shala-ball from a sphere that explodes on contact; calculating a teleporter's trajectory midteleportation and reacting to it; making a grab for the infinity gauntlet from a light year away in less than second; chasing an electronic signal arround in a maze.

Originally posted by 753
Since always actually. Alternate timelines are different universes, this is consistant in both DC and Marvel.

Not true. The timeline in which Superman became evil NEVER was accomplished, like that timeliene there are SEVERAL time line that NEVER become reality

Originally posted by 753
To finish it off. There is no actual reason to deduce SS learned of Gladiator's weakness through any ohter way than his CA as nothing in the comic hints at it.

He says "I KNOW YOUR WEAKNESS" , Not "I SENSED"

That + the fact that He meet Gladiator WAY before Devourer + the fact that the Skrull KNOW Glads Weaknesses + His frienship with a Kree citizen which are at odds with the SHIAR'S + not another showing of him detecting weaknesses on a character that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by 753
And the SS is not only superior to SM in versatility, but all arround more powerfull. The combat efficiency of SM's comparativelly limited powerset is what allows him to hang with beings much more powerfull than he is in battle, true. But still, SS has created an enourmous black hole through energy output alone. His raw power is at least on par with SM's and most people in all the forums agree that it's a good deal above.

He is not more powerful, his tiny other powers, do not compensate the fact that SM is far stronger than SS, Speed? Not much advantage as many believe, Energy output? Matched in several feats Energy Absorption? SM outshined SS. Punching and destroying Moons, palnetoids and meteorites? SM outshines SS. Combat Skill? SM above SS. Punching SEVERAL times in a second? SM outshines SS.
Transmutation SS wins, Global EMP? SAME and so on. SS minor powers are not a huge advantage and IF SS is more powerful than SM is not for much when you consider the advantages SM has on some departments
Yes he is more versatile, but SM IS NOT BYRNE SM ANYMORE

And MOST PEOPLE still think SM IS AT HIS POWER LEVEL OF 1992

Originally posted by biensalsa
Energy Absorption? SM outshined SS.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
😂 😆 shocklaugh laughcry

half a galaxy buster.

SS a sun at best

your head is so far up your own ass it's amazing

ouroboros of fail

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
😂 😆 shocklaugh laughcry

There, there. He has the same effect on everybody. 131

Originally posted by biensalsa
Not true. The timeline in which Superman became evil NEVER was accomplished, like that timeliene there are SEVERAL time line that NEVER become reality

He says "I KNOW YOUR WEAKNESS" , Not "I SENSED"

That + the fact that He meet Gladiator WAY before Devourer + the fact that the Skrull KNOW Glads Weaknesses + His frienship with a Kree citizen which are at odds with the SHIAR'S + not another showing of him detecting weaknesses on a character that I'm aware of.

He is not more powerful, his tiny other powers, do not compensate the fact that SM is far stronger than SS, Speed? Not much advantage as many believe, Energy output? Matched in several feats Energy Absorption? SM outshined SS. Punching and destroying Moons, palnetoids and meteorites? SM outshines SS. Combat Skill? SM above SS. Punching SEVERAL times in a second? SM outshines SS.
Transmutation SS wins, Global EMP? SAME and so on. SS minor powers are not a huge advantage and IF SS is more powerful than SM is not for much when you consider the advantages SM has on some departments
Yes he is more versatile, but SM IS NOT BYRNE SM ANYMORE

And MOST PEOPLE still think SM IS AT HIS POWER LEVEL OF 1992

Energy output, he's reignited a dying star and created a black hole. What are SM's matches exactly? What energy absortion feat of SM has outshined SS's best ones so clearly?

The main advantage SM has is superspeed h2h proficiency and strengh at baseline and like I said: this lets him punch outside his weightclass, but overall he is less powerfull.

^ 👆 👆

Originally posted by biensalsa
half a galaxy buster.

SS a sun at best

Unilord. Also:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
😂 😆 shocklaugh laughcry

Originally posted by psycho gundam
your head is so far up your own ass it's amazing

ouroboros of fail

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
There, there. He has the same effect on everybody. 131