Galactus Foes vs. Celestials and Gods

Originally posted by Nihilist
[B]lol, everthing dies except TOAA and LT(to a extent).

And with strange eons, even death may die? 😄

But in all seriuosness Beyonder killed Death and he's half a cosmic cube. Before you say that was the Pre Retcon Beyonder, this feat was confirmed in Death's bio.

Handbook dont mean shit , in the nexus he was powerless and easily physically hurt.

The nexus was the one point where everything was perfectly in balance and hence why the IB's powers didn't work.

Originally posted by zopzop
And with strange eons, even death may die? 😄

But in all seriuosness Beyonder killed Death and he's half a cosmic cube. Before you say that was the Pre Retcon Beyonder, this feat was confirmed in Death's bio.

The nexus was the one point where everything was perfectly in balance and hence why the IB's powers didn't work.

Proving under the right circumstances he can die/be hurt.

Originally posted by Utrigita
[B]So they have to be Thanos level intellect in order for you to believe that the user wielding the gem is competent? While the user being competent is certainly a aspect of the gems potential, it means nothing if the character in question like Galactus for instance, have shown resistance to 1 of the gems, been beyond the power of the second, strongly hinted to ignore the third, and last but not least was only drained from the power of the Infinity Gems when they was acting like a conduit else their power over him was nonexistant.

Galactus represent his own beginning and end, (him merging with the previous Eternity and all that) so unless the time gem can stop the time within a universe without assistance from the powergem well... and the Mind Gem didn't work wonders for Thanos when he had Moondragon use it with him to try and force knowledge from Galactus.

Moondragon is NOT a competent user of the Mind Gem. We've seen her use her TK once and Adam mentioned that the Mind Gem gives her that power and more. Yet we've never seen her use more than basic TP with the Mind Gem. It's not the Gem's fault Moondragon is a moron.

Being immune to the Soul Gem's soul suck isn't much of a feat. Like you said, the Punisher robots were immune to it also. Now where are you getting this immunity to the other Gems from for Galactus? What issue was it mentioned in?

Because the beings that created him Master Order and Lord Chaos combined with the rest of the Abstracts at that point of time, stood no chance against Thanos with the IG, or anyone else with it for that matter, now unless you have something that presents IB as above, Hate, Love, Stranger, Eon, Galactus, Eternity, 2 Celestials, Master Order, Lord Chaos, Cronos, Mephisto and Death this debate isn't worth continuing, because then you have nothing to back up your claim exact a handbook that mentions the Infinity Gems not the Infinity Gauntlet and those two things can hardly be considered the same. I know that the IB is powerful, but what makes him powerful is his ability to summon the opposite of his opponent, but when that isn't a possibility his powerlevel isn't above that of Galactus imo.

Your making a claim based on a handbook alone, I'm asking you if that is the only evidence you have for the claim you presented, and you answered that question, however your entire notation that IB is subject to only LT in Status and Power is obviously wrong, if that was the case, Master Order and Lord Chaos, who both are far beneath LT, won't have been capable of brushing IB aside like they did.

Order and Chaos made him. They were obviously smart enough to make him completely under control of their power, lest he go crazy. He's been shown ordering a higher level abstract around like a dog. A feat even his makers haven't been shown doing. We have the handbook saying he's immune to the Infinity Gems. How many other characters can say that (aside from Anomaly)?

And how do you explain Anomaly? With it's power Maelstrom withstood an IG blast from Thanos and was operating beyond Thanos' cosmic awareness (he wasn't even aware that Maelstrom was inside the crater caused by his blast mocking him to his face).

Is Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion/Prime Celestial Host/Order/Chaos above Anomaly? If yes, then the IB being immune to the Infinity Gems isn't a stretch especially if it's specifically mentioned in his official bio.

If IB was as you claim stalemating Galactus in the physical realm, why was there a need for IB to draw Galactus into a focus point inbetween where IB was at his strongest, unless IB, who you hold in high regard, is complete unaware of what is a regular knowledge in the universe, which is that Galactus deplets his energy, then there was no logical reason for IB to act as he did, if it wasn't for him being about to lose. It's a misunderstanding not to think Galactus a abstract and neither is it complete right either, Galactus is as we know a fusion between a Abstract and a Human and have thus created something inbetween, a semi abstract, that based on how each race that looks at him obtains a different picture of Galactus Galactus form can best be considered a form of M-body.

The IB didn't draw Galactus anywhere, in the course of their battle they drifted near a black hole and were caught in it's pull. The IB states if you fight the pull you lessen your ability to fight me, if you don't fight the pull we're drawn into my realm where I am all powerful. Either way Galactus was screwed.

And no Galactus is nowhere near an abstract. DP Tyrant made him bleed. We've seen that he has a skeletal structure, like any purely physical being. How many times have we seen a skeletal head of Galactus floating around? During the Annihilation arc, a starving Galactus was "pale" and his lips were dry/parched.

Originally posted by Nihilist But it was still pre retcon beyonder at the time of killing death and he was was uber powerfull though, plus bio arent a great source as stuff gets messed up all the time.
And everything the Beyonder did the abstracts just played along to help him fit in.

Proving under the right circumstances he can die/be hurt.

But Death being killed by Beyonder (pre retcon or not) is official. Otherwise why would it be in her bio (just like the Protege owning the LT). It wasn't stated that it was an illusion or a misunderstanding (like his other feats).

According to official Marvel storyline, Beyonder killed Death.

Originally posted by zopzop
Exactly! IB can't go into "a coma" and he doesn't weaken from "hunger". He was stalemating Galactus in his own realm of power and was on his way to completely owning him till Surfer/Nova/The Elders of the Universe stepped in.

IB is above Galactus because Galactus gets weakened, but still manages to stalemate IB?

Yes Sr J-Bieb, it makes perfect sense.

The IB was out of his element, the Magic Universe, and challenging Galactus in his own back yard (he even says this to him while they are fighting). Even before they got sucked into the black hole's pull, the IB was stalemating Galactus and seemed to be getting the upper hand (which is what caused the Elders to get involved in the first place, they feared that if the IB won, then he'd summon Death again and kill them like he killed their brothers).

Originally posted by zopzop
Moondragon is NOT a competent user of the Mind Gem. We've seen her use her TK once and Adam mentioned that the Mind Gem gives her that power and more. Yet we've never seen her use more than basic TP with the Mind Gem. It's not the Gem's fault Moondragon is a moron.

Being immune to the Soul Gem's soul suck isn't much of a feat. Like you said, the Punisher robots were immune to it also. Now where are you getting this immunity to the other Gems from for Galactus? What issue was it mentioned in?

Order and Chaos made him. They were obviously smart enough to make him completely under control of their power, lest he go crazy. He's been shown ordering a higher level abstract around like a dog. A feat even his makers haven't been shown doing. We have the handbook saying he's immune to the Infinity Gems. How many other characters can say that (aside from Anomaly)?

And how do you explain Anomaly? With it's power Maelstrom withstood an IG blast from Thanos and was operating beyond Thanos' cosmic awareness (he wasn't even aware that Maelstrom was inside the crater caused by his blast mocking him to his face).

Is Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion/Prime Celestial Host/Order/Chaos above Anomaly? If yes, then the IB being immune to the Infinity Gems isn't a stretch especially if it's specifically mentioned in his official bio.

The IB didn't draw Galactus anywhere, in the course of their battle they drifted near a black hole and were caught in it's pull. The IB states if you fight the pull you lessen your ability to fight me, if you don't fight the pull we're drawn into my realm where I am all powerful. Either way Galactus was screwed.

And no Galactus is nowhere near an abstract. DP Tyrant made him bleed. We've seen that he has a skeletal structure, like any purely physical being. How many times have we seen a skeletal head of Galactus floating around? During the Annihilation arc, a starving Galactus was "pale" and his lips were dry/parched.

Yet she still have a good grasp at how the gem is going to be used, coupled with Adam Warlock using the Infinity Gauntlet to restrict her access to the gem probably didn't help her either. We also have another incident most notably Odin vs Thanos where Thanos told the Infinity Watch to pull back, if the watch with the Gems could easily have taken out Odin why didn't he bring them along, Adam was one of them and he can hardly be called a incompetent user of the gems.

The majority that I place the Gems not working against Galactus on is that when the elders (the incident you brought up yourself) used it against Galactus they required, 6 planets to focus the energy from Galactus into and the Sun as a source to empower the gems or whatever, fact however concerning the incident is that when the Sun went Nova the gems no longer by themselves held any power over Galactus.

It doesn't in any way change the fact that IB hide from his masters knowing he would be punished, if he was half powerful as you make him out to be he had no reason to fear his masters, which is the bottomline. As Nihilist have already pointed out, him ordering death about is a part of his powerset, he summoned the opposite of the immortal elders, and that opposite to immortal is Death, If he summoned the opposite against Eternity for instance, which would also be Death, he won't be capable of forcing Death to fight Eternity because their stalemate and truce or whatever you want to call it, is determined by a higher law then the one IB operates under. I have no idea as to which characters are immune to Infinity Gems as I don't read the handbooks.

And I'm not here to explain Anomoly which can not under any strecth be considered a opposite to IB, When Maelstrom made his black hole numerous Entities, the Celestials, The Watchers, Galactus and others showed up merely to watch, yet Quasar beat Maelstrom, should we then assume now that Quasar is above all of these beings and the Infinity Gauntlet as well? If we imply your logic then probably yes.

So your asking me to provide proof that the Anomoly is below the Abstracts in order for you to have evidence for your statement that the IB is above the Infinity Gauntlet, a statement that is now based on Anomoly and IB having a unshown relationship, while we know that the Anomoly was nothing but a factor in a battle between Oblivion and Infinity... This is getting far out.

He was severely disadvantaged at that point of time, because IB would be placed where he was at his strongest, not all powerful, but at his strongest, which is also telling for how the battle was going for IB, he needed to be placed in a location, where 1. Galactus had to expend energy getting away from 2. IB was at his strongest. Either way it doesn't at all paint a picture of IB was being significantly stronger then Galactus and it doesn't at all paint a picture of a being second in power only to LT.

He is a semi abstract as mentioned before, unless you have a logical explanation as to why each race perceives Galactus differently, or you have a logical reason as to why when addressing Eternity he toke the form of a Star, or you got a explanation as to why when Tenebrous and Aegis had downed him, he was bleeding energy not blood. He isn't full abstract but he certainly isn't full physical either.

This discussion, to get back to the primary reasons, was initiated because of several things, you having the belief that the IB is below none except the LT in Status and Power, Galactus Immunities to the Gems and IB's immunity to the Infinity Gems that I then claimed can't be seen as being on the same powerscale as the Infinity Gauntlet. That was the reason for this discussion, and atm, you have nothing that supports IB being second in power to only LT, you have nothing on panel that supports IB being above the Infinity Gauntlet or immune to it's power, that is it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
[B]Yet she still have a good grasp at how the gem is going to be used, coupled with Adam Warlock using the Infinity Gauntlet to restrict her access to the gem probably didn't help her either. We also have another incident most notably Odin vs Thanos where Thanos told the Infinity Watch to pull back, if the watch with the Gems could easily have taken out Odin why didn't he bring them along, Adam was one of them and he can hardly be called a incompetent user of the gems.

But the TK incident is after Warlock gave the gem to her and told her it granted her that power and many others, yet she's never used it again, ever.

Of course Thanos told the Watch to pull back, they used the gems like morons. What's Pip gonna do? TP over Odin's head and "bonk" him?

The majority that I place the Gems not working against Galactus on is that when the elders (the incident you brought up yourself) used it against Galactus they required, 6 planets to focus the energy from Galactus into and the Sun as a source to empower the gems or whatever, fact however concerning the incident is that when the Sun went Nova the gems no longer by themselves held any power over Galactus.

The gems true power were unknown at the time they assaulted Galactus with them.

It doesn't in any way change the fact that IB hide from his masters knowing he would be punished, if he was half powerful as you make him out to be he had no reason to fear his masters, which is the bottomline. As Nihilist have already pointed out, him ordering death about is a part of his powerset, he summoned the opposite of the immortal elders, and that opposite to immortal is Death, If he summoned the opposite against Eternity for instance, which would also be Death, he won't be capable of forcing Death to fight Eternity because their stalemate and truce or whatever you want to call it, is determined by a higher law then the one IB operates under. I have no idea as to which characters are immune to Infinity Gems as I don't read the handbooks.

Of course he hides from his masters, they made him. Yet he has ordered a being supposedly higher on the cosmic scale than them around like a dog.

The Elders aren't immortal. The only reason they can't die was because of a bet Grandmaster and Death made. She swore she'd never take them and the IB made her eat her words and kill them.

And I'm not here to explain Anomoly which can not under any strecth be considered a opposite to IB, When Maelstrom made his black hole numerous Entities, the Celestials, The Watchers, Galactus and others showed up merely to watch, yet Quasar beat Maelstrom, should we then assume now that Quasar is above all of these beings and the Infinity Gauntlet as well? If we imply your logic then probably yes.

The IB is the synthesis of all dualities, he would of course have access to Anomaly's powers. Maybe that's why the Handbook mentions his Gems immunity.

Quasar beat Maelstrom by using Anomaly's power against him. He distracted Maelstrom long enough, by stating that Quasar too had an aspect of Anomaly, for the Quantum Bands to consume him. Again it was Anomaly that came through.

So your asking me to provide proof that the Anomoly is below the Abstracts in order for you to have evidence for your statement that the IB is above the Infinity Gauntlet, a statement that is now based on Anomoly and IB having a unshown relationship, while we know that the Anomoly was nothing but a factor in a battle between Oblivion and Infinity... This is getting far out.

Absolutely wrong. It was Anomaly that threw off Maelstrom's concentration and allowed him to be destroyed by the Bands.

He was severely disadvantaged at that point of time, because IB would be placed where he was at his strongest, not all powerful, but at his strongest, which is also telling for how the battle was going for IB, he needed to be placed in a location, where 1. Galactus had to expend energy getting away from 2. IB was at his strongest. Either way it doesn't at all paint a picture of IB was being significantly stronger then Galactus and it doesn't at all paint a picture of a being second in power only to LT.

Huh? The battle in "our" universe was stalemating with a slight advantage going for the IB. The IB didn't need to take the fight to the black hole or his magic universe.

The IB even said that they were in Galactus' realm, where he has the advantage. Yet Galactus couldn't put down the IB.

He is a semi abstract as mentioned before, unless you have a logical explanation as to why each race perceives Galactus differently, or you have a logical reason as to why when addressing Eternity he toke the form of a Star, or you got a explanation as to why when Tenebrous and Aegis had downed him, he was bleeding energy not blood. He isn't full abstract but he certainly isn't full physical either.

He has bled. This has been shown on panel. He has a skeletal structure, this has been shown on panel, numerous times. He looked "pale" and his lips were blistered and chapped when he was starved.

He's very physical. Even the Celestials who aren't abstractions at all have never shown such mortal weaknesses or attributes.

This discussion, to get back to the primary reasons, was initiated because of several things, you having the belief that the IB is below none except the LT in Status and Power, Galactus Immunities to the Gems and IB's immunity to the Infinity Gems that I then claimed can't be seen as being on the same powerscale as the Infinity Gauntlet. That was the reason for this discussion, and atm, you have nothing that supports IB being second in power to only LT, you have nothing on panel that supports IB being above the Infinity Gauntlet or immune to it's power, that is it.

What Galactus "immunities to the gems"? I've only seen on panel evidence of immunity to one gem, and that gem seems to have problems with things like robots and "soulless" beings.

Anomaly was immune to the gems effects. The IB is the synthesis of all dualities. He has access to Anomaly's powers and aspects. The Handbook states he's immune to the Gems and their effects.

Maybe I exaggerated in saying he's second in power only to the LT, obviously his Masters have their foot on his throat. But even they have never ordered around an abstract higher then them on the cosmic hierarchy like a dog.

Originally posted by zopzop

He has bled. This has been shown on panel. He has a skeletal structure, this has been shown on panel, numerous times. He looked "pale" and his lips were blistered and chapped when he was starved.

He's very physical. Even the Celestials who aren't abstractions at all have never shown such mortal weaknesses or attributes.

I don't recall the 616 Galactus being shown to have a skeletal structure "numerous times." Where was this? The skull from the abraxas arc is from an alternate universe Galactus.

To clarify, Galactus is partially physical, but nowhere near the simple biology that you think:

Galan of Taa is pure flesh and blood. Mortal biology. Here, he merges with the Eternity of his universe. Of course, this Eternity, exactly like current Eternity, is an abstract concept.

Thanos (Paraphrasing): Galactus is NOT of pure biology. To think he is purely biological is arrogance by beings of biological nature, which Galactus is not.

Byrne: "For Galactus is truly no longer a being in the absolute physical sense"

This idea is revisted again in Stormbreaker. Galactus is perceived by the korbonites to be their god of destruction, Ashta

Johnny Storm, Herald of Galactus, whose power as the Invisible Man is to see things as they trully are (as opposed to what is seen by just the naked eye) calls Galactus "a metamorphosed embodiment of a cosmos" i.e., an entire universe made incarnate. Further reinforcing Galan of Taa merigng with the embodiment of his universe, Eternity. Not entirely physical.

Note how all of these scans are the writers affirming that Galactus is not a purely physical being.

In terms of artistic license...if you go by Galactus having chapped lips in Annihilation you also have to go by Galactus bleeding energy, as well as going by Galactus being perceived by the korbonites as their death god, Ashta. All of these instances are drawn by the same artist, Andrea DiVito. The chappend/imprisoned Galactus is just how Galactus is perceived to appear to the characters and to "the reader." Thanos confirms that Galactus is not a purely biological being. And for the 1 image of DP Tyrant making Galactus bleed, there's many more images of Wellinton Alves drawing Galactus to appear semi-abstract...in fact he appears like Eternity.

There's much more evidence than what I gave...it's on another computer. But this should be conclusive proof.

Originally posted by zopzop
But Death being killed by Beyonder (pre retcon or not) is official. Otherwise why would it be in her bio (just like the Protege owning the LT). It wasn't stated that it was an illusion or a misunderstanding (like his other feats).

According to official Marvel storyline, Beyonder killed Death.

And there is no way pre recton Beyonder could kill Death.