Would the world be better off or worse if there were no religion?

Originally posted by Digi
Well, Death Terror is giving it a concrete name. I prefer to just refer to it as "our intrinsic nature" to leave in other possible explanations. I don't doubt that fear of death is part of it, but part of it also derives from our tendency to gravitate to social groups, or the cognitive dissonance that arises when we can't rationalize the world around us, or other factors I'm not thinking of.

Everything we think, do and say is geared toward distancing ourselves from DT. As individuals, as a species, we seek power. It's mostly unconscious, of course, and its influence takes on different manifestations at different levels. But all other drives can be traced back to this. If you can't stay alive, you can't do anything else.

Noted, and thanks. It's an interesting perspective. I'm just not sure I can attribute it as the cause of our other motivations. It is a motivation, to be sure, and a big one. But I simply see it alongside others, not the driving force behind them all.

Because, yes, we can't operate on our other motivations if we're not alive. But, for example, I rarely think about my mortality, though I'm aware of it. Most of my decisions in life don't revolve around survival chance. You have a stronger point in more harrowing life circumstances, certainly, but religion is an influence over every walk of life, including those whose deaths are more an abstract concept than an imminent event.

That theory also gets thrown into chaos by things like my suicide bomber example earlier. Is death terror the primary motivation behind someone taking their life, in the name of a religion or other cause? More likely the were simply unattached males (which nearly all suicide bombers are) who were manipulated by someone in a position of power, religious or otherwise. It's a power grab for one, sure, but just a social phenomenon for the bomber himself.

Originally posted by Digi
Because, yes, we can't operate on our other motivations if we're not alive. But, for example, I rarely think about my mortality, though I'm aware of it. Most of my decisions in life don't revolve around survival chance. You have a stronger point in more harrowing life circumstances, certainly, but religion is an influence over every walk of life, including those whose deaths are more an abstract concept than an imminent event.

That theory also gets thrown into chaos by things like my suicide bomber example earlier. Is death terror the primary motivation behind someone taking their life, in the name of a religion or other cause? More likely the were simply unattached males (which nearly all suicide bombers are) who were manipulated by someone in a position of power, religious or otherwise. It's a power grab for one, sure, but just a social phenomenon for the bomber himself.

Just being apologetic...

That can also be applied to seppuku. In Japanese culture, suicide is a way to remove one's shame.

But suicide--for any reason--seems to fly in the face of "Death Terror".

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That can also be applied to seppuku. In Japanese culture, suicide is a way to remove one's shame.

But suicide--for any reason--seems to fly in the face of "Death Terror".

We think of suicide as an extraordinary act. No one is claiming that every single person in the history of the human race acts on this principle all the time.

In the US (for example) 99.989% of the population does't commit suicide. I'd say that's enough for us to call it a consistent rule, wouldn't you?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
We think of suicide as an extraordinary act. No one is claiming that every single person in the history of the human race acts on this principle all the time.

In the US (for example) 99.999996% don't commit suicide. I'd say that's enough for us to call it a consistent rule, wouldn't you?

How is it "extraordinary", and who's "we"? In my life, I've personally known 6 people who've commited suicide. In fact, according to the World Health Organization, a suicide occurs somewhere every 40 seconds. So what happens to the so-called Death Terror?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
How is it "extraordinary", and who's "we"? In my life, I've personally known 6 people who've commited suicide.

I assume you've known a lot more than six people in your life. Thus suicide is out of the ordinary.

And your life is an irrelevant anecdote compared to the lives of every person on the planet. Fact: less than .1% of people ever kill themselves.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
In fact, according to the World Health Organization, a suicide occurs somewhere every 40 seconds. So what happens to the so-called Death Terror?

In the case of people who kill themselves? I have no idea. It's a big planet, there are all kinds of potential circumstances severe enough to make them overcome the natural inclination not to do so.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I assume you've known a lot more than six people in your life. Thus suicide is out of the ordinary.

And your life is an irrelevant anecdote compared to the lives of every person on the planet. Fact: less than .1% of people ever kill themselves.

In the case of people who kill themselves? I have no idea. It's a big planet, there are all kinds of potential circumstances severe enough to make them overcome the natural inclination not to do so.

The fact that it occurs at all, and isn't a freak once-in-a-century occurance probably speaks to something. It may be a lot more rare than homocide and natural death, but its not unheard-of; it literally happens every single day. Depression/sadness is far and away the most common cause, so then why doesn't the survival drive/"Death Terror" kick in and over-ride it? Perhaps it isn't strong as people like to believe.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The fact that it occurs at all, and isn't a freak once-in-a-century occurance probably speaks to something. It may be a lot more rare than homocide and natural death, but its not unheard-of; it literally happens every single day. Depression/sadness is far and away the most common cause, so then why doesn't the survival drive/"Death Terror" kick in and over-ride it? Perhaps it isn't strong as people like to believe.

Or perhaps depression is much more severe than popular culture likes to pretend.

Let's put it this way. I have a suit of armor that protects me 99.89% of the time. I'm going to call that good, highly effective armor and try to find out what could possibly be piercing it that .11% of the time. You would apparently claim that it doesn't do anything.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That can also be applied to seppuku. In Japanese culture, suicide is a way to remove one's shame.

But suicide--for any reason--seems to fly in the face of "Death Terror".

The thing about human beings is that we aren't just biological creatures; we are psychological beings as well, and sometimes the symbolic integrity of the ego supercedes the physical integrity of the body. "Death before dishonor." This would also explain "heroes": people who would sacrifice themselves to save others. There is identification with something "bigger" than one's physical existence. Humans can attach themselves to all sorts of high-falootin' abstractions, and the survival of that self-concept then becomes paramount.

Are Quiero and I arguing the same side? haermm

Originally posted by Mindship
Sometimes death is simply preferred to living with pain. It is the lesser of the two evils.

The thing about human beings is that we aren't just biological creatures; we are psychological beings as well, and sometimes the symbolic integrity of the ego supercedes the physical integrity of the body. "Death before dishonor." This would also explain "heroes": people who would sacrifice themselves to save others. There is identification with something "bigger" than one's physical existence. Humans can attach themselves to all sorts of high-falootin' abstractions, and the survival of that self-concept then becomes paramount.

...which I believe is a defense of my point, but meh. We're squabbling over breadcrumbs here. Right or not, my lengthy defense (again ironic) of theism as a non-issue as it concerns global violence remains valid, imo.

Originally posted by Digi
...which I believe is a defense of my point, but meh. We're squabbling over breadcrumbs here. Right or not, my lengthy defense (again ironic) of theism as a non-issue as it concerns global violence remains valid, imo.

I'm not sure how what I said defends your point of multiple motivations (?), since I was defending mine (why suicide and DT can still get along), but generally I do agree that religion, in and of itself, is not the root cause of human aggression. But it is a good way to justify it (ie, Divine License to kill).

I'm much more a proponent of an aphorism by Twain: "Fear of death is the same as fear of life. A man who lives fully is never afraid to die."

Paraphrased as closely as I could remember. But the message is there.

Anyway, I believe that your point about heroes strengthens my own because you're showing evidence of a motivation that supercedes a fear of death. Whether or not a fear of death is always present (which I'd argue it isn't, especially in religious cases), there are motivations that will not only compete with DT but overcome and replace it.

Originally posted by Digi
I'm much more a proponent of an aphorism by Twain: "Fear of death is the same as fear of life. A man who lives fully is never afraid to die."

Paraphrased as closely as I could remember. But the message is there.

Anyway, I believe that your point about heroes strengthens my own because you're showing evidence of a motivation that supercedes a fear of death. Whether or not a fear of death is always present (which I'd argue it isn't, especially in religious cases), there are motivations that will not only compete with DT but overcome and replace it.

Sorry if I was pushing. But now and then, I do like to use KMC as training for real life debating.

The world would definitely be worse off without religion. Religion gave us all of our civilizing qualities, and without it, we would have been long extinct.